Has the 70 Weeks of Daniel prophecy been fulfilled in history ?

[Charlie744]

15 minutes ago, douggg said:

Okay, we can cross off the little horn, as being the basis for the notion that them John was speaking to in 1John2:18 had heard antichrist (singular) shall come.

So where did they get that notion that antichrist (singular) shall come ?

Thanks Doug. I know you will not want to hear it but it is the truth - not MY truth. Prior to the reformation, the consensus was the papacy was / is the little horn of Daniel. The RCC was being attacked from all directions during the Reformation period and they had commissioned the Jesuits to develop an interpretation that would removee this "label" from the papacy. There were two separate new interpretations presented to the papacy, and the one selected treated a few of the chapter 9"24-27 verses as being attributed to a "individual" figure that would come at the end of time. Thus, they could not possibly be the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8. This new interpretation is known in many different ways; the Jesuits Futurist interpretation, the 7 year tribulation (more recently).

Essentially, they selected certain verses that ARE messianic in chapter 9 and attributed them to this "mythical" INDIVIDUAL that will come at the end of time:

1) they intentionally treated the last week of Daniel (the same final week that was set aside for the Messiah to fulfill His God given misions (9:24), and threw it 2000 years (and still counting) into the future where no one can challenge it... oh, it just hasn't happened yet. So they can not be the "little horn."

2) they treated the Covenant that Jesus gave His life for in the "midst of the week" the final week of the prophecy, and asserted this same "mythical" anti-Christ figure will enter into a covenan with the Jews at the end of things. Only God makes covenants with His people and there is NO anti-Christ figure arriving.

3) they also claim this same figure would renege on this unscriptural covenant between the Jews and this mythical anti-Christ figure exactly in the middle of this 7 year period that belonged to the Messiah in the 70 weeks prophecy.

4) And then they continued to build on this ridiculous (but very successful) interpretation by claiming after this "reneging" of their agreement, it will bring in the "Great tribulation" the world has never seen and this figure will attack Israel and on and on and on...

5) And this became the "accepted interpretations" for the important verses in chapter 9  (9:24-27). They were taught within the powerful RCC system - to the children, their children, their children, and so on for the many generations of families since the 16th century. And the size and power of the RCC would ensure its success.

6) The Jesuit priest was Father Riberi... (hope I have that right). 

7) They have taken God's prophecies of His first advent and those that speak of His mission and all the events that it would cause, and they have assigned them or attributed them to some mythical figure that will never come - but, your eyes are no longer on the "little horn" of Daniel. No one today speaks of the little horn that God has spent so much ink revealing. They even have been so successful in having everyone speak  of and "anti-Christ" figure. No one discusses the term "little horn" ... look at ALL of the posts just in this Worthy Forum ...  milli0ns and millions of posts referencing the "anti-Christ" figure (and also coming at the end of time). No one speaks of the "little horn" that God revealed to His people in chapters 7,8,9 11 and 12.

Greatest marketing campaign the world has ever seen outside the one that Satan put upon the earth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

37 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks Doug. I know you will not want to hear it but it is the truth - not MY truth. Prior to the reformation, the consensus was the papacy was / is the little horn of Daniel. The RCC was being attacked from all directions during the Reformation period and they had commissioned the Jesuits to develop an interpretation that would removee this "label" from the papacy. There were two separate new interpretations presented to the papacy, and the one selected treated a few of the chapter 9"24-27 verses as being attributed to a "individual" figure that would come at the end of time. Thus, they could not possibly be the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8. This new interpretation is known in many different ways; the Jesuits Futurist interpretation, the 7 year tribulation (more recently).

Essentially, they selected certain verses that ARE messianic in chapter 9 and attributed them to this "mythical" INDIVIDUAL that will come at the end of time:

1) they intentionally treated the last week of Daniel (the same final week that was set aside for the Messiah to fulfill His God given misions (9:24), and threw it 2000 years (and still counting) into the future where no one can challenge it... oh, it just hasn't happened yet. So they can not be the "little horn."

2) they treated the Covenant that Jesus gave His life for in the "midst of the week" the final week of the prophecy, and asserted this same "mythical" anti-Christ figure will enter into a covenan with the Jews at the end of things. Only God makes covenants with His people and there is NO anti-Christ figure arriving.

3) they also claim this same figure would renege on this unscriptural covenant between the Jews and this mythical anti-Christ figure exactly in the middle of this 7 year period that belonged to the Messiah in the 70 weeks prophecy.

4) And then they continued to build on this ridiculous (but very successful) interpretation by claiming after this "reneging" of their agreement, it will bring in the "Great tribulation" the world has never seen and this figure will attack Israel and on and on and on...

5) And this became the "accepted interpretations" for the important verses in chapter 9  (9:24-27). They were taught within the powerful RCC system - to the children, their children, their children, and so on for the many generations of families since the 16th century. And the size and power of the RCC would ensure its success.

6) The Jesuit priest was Father Riberi... (hope I have that right). 

7) They have taken God's prophecies of His first advent and those that speak of His mission and all the events that it would cause, and they have assigned them or attributed them to some mythical figure that will never come - but, your eyes are no longer on the "little horn" of Daniel. No one today speaks of the little horn that God has spent so much ink revealing. They even have been so successful in having everyone speak  of and "anti-Christ" figure. No one discusses the term "little horn" ... look at ALL of the posts just in this Worthy Forum ...  milli0ns and millions of posts referencing the "anti-Christ" figure (and also coming at the end of time). No one speaks of the "little horn" that God revealed to His people in chapters 7,8,9 11 and 12.

Greatest marketing campaign the world has ever seen outside the one that Satan put upon the earth.

1John2:18 was long before there was any RCC, pope, papacy.    So them John was speaking to did not get the notion that antichrist (singular) shall come - from any of those sources.

Where they got the notion that a singular antichrist shall come - was from John himself, who wrote in John 5:43 of Jesus saying the Jews will would accept another as their King of Israel messiah (implied).

The Jews rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah, and the religious leaders even mocked him in Mark 15:32 referring to Jesus as "Christ the king of Israel".    Also in Matthew 27:42.

So the person who becomes the Antichrist will do so by being anointed the King of Israel.

----------------------------------

the person first emerges as the little horn person, leader of a pack of ten EU leaders.

then following Gog/Magog becomes the prince who shall come.

then is anointed the King of Israel, becoming the Antichrist.

then is revealed as the man of sin, ending his time as being the Antichrist role.

then becomes the beast-king of Revelation 13, dictator over the EU.

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

1John2:18 was long before there was any RCC, pope, papacy.    So them John was speaking to did not get the notion that antichrist (singular) shall come - from any of those sources.

Where they got the notion that a singular antichrist shall come - was from John himself, who wrote in John 5:43 of Jesus saying the Jews will would accept another as their King of Israel messiah (implied).

The Jews rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah, and the religious leaders even mocked him in Mark 15:32 referring to Jesus as "Christ the king of Israel".    Also in Matthew 27:42.

So the person who becomes the Antichrist will do so by being anointed the King of Israel.

----------------------------------

the person first emerges as the little horn person, leader of a pack of ten EU leaders.

then following Gog/Magog becomes the prince who shall come.

then is anointed the King of Israel, becoming the Antichrist.

then is revealed as the man of sin, ending his time as being the Antichrist role.

then becomes the beast-king of Revelation 13, dictator over the EU.

 

 

 

 

Not sure I am following all of this. But there are two very different periods being discussed in your response. 
 

Jesus referred to many “anti/Christ’”, not a singular individual. 
 

He, in Daniel was speaking about one specific individual- there is only one little horn who heads the 4th beast of papal Rome. 
 

If you are referring to the “people of the prince who is to come” in Daniel, that is indeed the little horn. 
 

Regarding John 5:43, there were / would be MANY that would claim to be the Christ AFTER the cross and many have believed them, yet the Messiah was not believed.

 

The man of sin is or will be revealed as the little horn who has been worshiped since 500 AD. There are over 1.3 BILLION that worship this false god on earth. 
 

I won’t go into it now since it would take another month to go through, but the 10 horns, the 10 kings in Daniel ARE NOT 10 COMING NATIONS, EU consortium, etc. But if you study Daniel on your own, you will have to come to the conclusion that:

1) the 10 toes, the 10 horns, and the 10 kings are the same. Just as God used different symbols to discuss the same 4 kingdoms - chapter 2, 7 and 8, He also used 3 different symbols to discuss these same 10 as they also transitioned through the different presentations - chapter 2 to 7 to 8. 
 

Consequently, look into when they began. They existed before the cross, after the cross and continue until the end of time. (This particular interpretation is unlike ANY that is found in today’s accepted interpretations because it and so many other interpretations within Daniel are found within our history books). Interpreters attempt to match the actors and events in Daniel to OUR history books. But Daniel is not a history book- it represents God’s plan of salvation and He will include or exclude whatever actors or events He so chooses to reveal His prophecies. They is why I spent the last 5 years trying to unpack Daniel. It started when I would consistently find this scholar saw a verse one way, and another scholar interpreted the same verse completely different. Someone had to be wrong- and maybe both. But there is not ONE interpreter that interprets Daniel other than on a “historical “ approach.” 
 

Since I knew absolutely nothing about Daniel or the Scriptures, I had no bias and no interpretations to get rid on that prevented me from taking on each verse as though it was the first time I read / studied it— because it was. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Consequently, look into when they began. They existed before the cross, after the cross and continue until the end of time.

The terms "fractal" and "template" are sometimes used of reoccurring representations.

Fractal

1. a curve or geometrical figure, each part of which has the same statistical character as the whole. They are useful in modelling structures (such as snowflakes) in which similar patterns recur at progressively smaller scales, and in describing partly random or chaotic phenomena such as crystal growth and galaxy formation.

Template

something that serves as a model for others to copy:

[Oxford Languages]

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Jesus referred to many “anti/Christ’”, not a singular individual. 

Charlie, Jesus did not refer to many antichrists, but false christs in Matthew 24:24.   false christs are persons claiming to be Jesus.

In modern times, examples are John Smith of Australia, Vissarion in Russia, José Luis de Jesús Miranda.   Each claiming to be Jesus.

---------------------------------------------

Separately, in Judaism, the Jews have had many what they term as "failed messiahs" i.e. persons, like Simon bar Kokhba, Sabbatai Zevia, and others, who at one time the Jews thought was the messiah, but failed and were never anointed the King of Israel.

---------------------------------------------

There have only been three men who have been kings of Israel (united).  

Saul, then David.   Both anointed by the prophet Samuel.   Then Solomon, anointed by the prophet Nathan.

For the reason of being anointed by a known prophet, Jews (Judaism) believe that messiah will be anointed by a known prophet.   They also believe that the prophet Elijah will return to be a part of the messianic age.

Which the person who becomes the Antichrist will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet of Revelation 13, who will initially will be thought by the Jews to be Elijah.

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Not sure I am following all of this. But there are two very different periods being discussed in your response. 

The little horn person will ultimately become the beast-king.   In Daniel 8:16, he is time of the end.    In Daniel 8:25, after becoming the beast-king, he meets his end when he stands up against the Prince of princes Jesus.

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Regarding John 5:43, there were / would be MANY that would claim to be the Christ AFTER the cross and many have believed them, yet the Messiah was not believed.

In John 5:43, Jesus referred to another (singular), not others (plural), that the Jews would accept as their King of Israel messiah (implied).

The main thing about the Antichrist to remember is that there will be just one person coming who will actually be anointed the King of Israel.    He will be the Antichrist only for the three years thereabouts of being the King of Israel.    Before moving to the next major role which will be as the beast-king of Revelation 13, the dictator of the EU.  

Edited November 26, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, douggg said:

Charlie, Jesus did not refer to many antichrists, but false christs in Matthew 24:24.   false christs are persons claiming to be Jesus.

In modern times, examples are John Smith of Australia, Vissarion in Russia, José Luis de Jesús Miranda.   Each claiming to be Jesus.

---------------------------------------------

Separately, in Judaism, the Jews have had many what they term as "failed messiahs" i.e. persons, like Simon bar Kokhba, Sabbatai Zevia, and others, who at one time the Jews thought was the messiah, but failed and were never anointed the King of Israel.

---------------------------------------------

There have only been three men who have been kings of Israel (united).  

Saul, then David.   Both anointed by the prophet Samuel.   Then Solomon, anointed by the prophet Nathan.

For the reason of being anointed by a known prophet, Jews (Judaism) believe that messiah will be anointed by a known prophet.   They also believe that the prophet Elijah will return to be a part of the messianic age.

Which the person who becomes the Antichrist will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet of Revelation 13, who will initially will be thought by the Jews to be Elijah.

The little horn person will ultimately become the beast-king.   In Daniel 8:16, he is time of the end.    In Daniel 8:25, after becoming the beast-king, he meets his end when he stands up against the Prince of princes Jesus.

In John 5:43, Jesus referred to another (singular), not others (plural), that the Jews would accept as their King of Israel messiah (implied).

The main thing about the Antichrist to remember is that there will be just one person coming who will actually be anointed the King of Israel.    He will be the Antichrist only for the three years thereabouts of being the King of Israel.    Before moving to the next major role which will be as the beast-king of Revelation 13, the dictator of the EU.  

Okay and thanks for your responses. I do believe your thoughts and interpretations are in the majority. Best wishes always!

[WilliamL]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:26 AM, R. Hartono said:

Daniel 9 ²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Is there any evidence in the history of Israel that :

1. finished the transgression of the Jewish

2. made an end of sins, no more sins in Israel

3. reconciliation to iniquity,

4. Everlasting righteousness in Israel

5. All visions and prophecy has been fulfilled

... Show me some historical evidence.

Sure. Here is an excerpt from:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

Daniel 9:24

שָׁבֻעִים/weeks שִׁבְעִים/seventy נֶחְתַּךְ/have been decreed/determined [Niphal verb stem (passive voice) Perfect (completed action)] עַֽל־/upon עַמְּךָ/thy people [ךָ: second masc. sing. (2ms) suffix, “of thee, thy”] וְעַל־/and upon [ו: a prefix-conjunction meaning “and, but, even,” etc., according to context] עִיר/city קָדְשֶׁךָ/holy of thee…

“Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…”

Comment: Note that this prophecy is only for “thy people” – the Middle Eastern remnant of Judah and Israel – and for Jerusalem.

*          *          *

…לְכַלֵּא/in order to utterly restrain/restrict [Piel verb stem (intensive) Infinitive Construct; with prefix ל: “in order to, for the purpose of”] הַפֶּשַׁע/the rebellion/transgression/apostasy [ה: prefix meaning “the”]…

“…(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy…”

Comment: כלא does not mean “finish,” despite what many translations say. (That is the meaning of the similar Hebrew word כלה.) Also, “the rebellion/transgression/apostasy” is speaking of a specific revolt against authority, not merely sin/transgression in general; in that case, the prefix ה/“the” would not be used.

The specific rebellion/פשע being referred to is the culminating apostasy of the Jewish nationʼs priesthood and people, the פשע/pesha originally spoken of in Daniel 8:12, 13, 23. That pesha was the focus of Danielʼs “vision in the beginning” (9:21), for which Gabriel originally had been sent to him to explain. 8:16 In Daniel 9, Gabriel has returned “to make you skillful of understanding…[of] the vision” of Daniel 8. 9:22-23

This transgression of the priesthood took place when Syrian King Antiochus Epiphanes, after being bribed, removed Onias III, the pious High Priest over the Jewish people, and installed his apostatizing brother Jason in the latter 170s B.C. Jason promoted Greek religious and social customs. See Antiochus Ephiphanes and the End Times, Part 1. 1 Maccabees 2:15 calls the subsequent debasement of the priesthood, Temple, and people “the apostasy” [apostasia]. Continuing corruptions of the priesthood, including bribes, took place during the later time of Roman rule. Jesus condemned these things, and prophesied the desolation of the religious establishment and the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because of it. Matt. 23, esp. vs. 35-39. More on this later.

*          *          *

…[Kethib:] ולחתם/and in order to close up/seal up [Qal verb stem (basic) Infinitive with ל prefix]; [Qere:] ולהתם/and in order to cause to complete [Hiphil verb stem (causative) Infinitive with ל prefix] [Kethib:] חטאות/sins/sin offerings [plural]; [Qere:] חטאת/sin(-fulness)/sin offering [singular]…

“…and (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings; or and (in order) to cause to complete sin(-fulness)/sin offering…”

Comment: This phrase contains two textual variants, the only ones found throughout verses 24-27. Kethib refers to the original written text; Qere refers to the generally-preferred amended text that is read aloud in synagogues.

The term for sin/sinfulness/sin offering is at the root of the variant readings. The Kethib reading – “to close up/seal up sins or sin offerings” – presents some problems for the Jewish faith:

1) something closed or sealed can be reopened (if referring to sinfulness), and

2) if sin offerings on the altar are meant, that would mean the end of orthodox, Temple-centered Jewish religion, something unthinkable for most Jews of that era. In fact, that is exactly what occurred in 70 A.D. – but more on this later.

On the other hand, the preferred Qere reading – “to cause to complete sin or sinfulness” – is more in line with the Jewish belief that their coming Messiah, referred to in verse 26, is to deliver Israel from its sinfulness:

Isaiah 27:9 …the iniquity of Jacob shall be covered.

Likewise, this was the belief of the first-century followers of Jesus –

Luke 24:21 …we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel.

– and thus the Qere version of this phrase is found in most Christians translations. Both Jew and Christian have read into this what they prefer to find. However, other prophecies tell us that sinning will remain on earth until it is destroyed at the end of the Millennium, so the Kethib reading “to close up sin offerings” makes the most scriptural and historical sense. See Is. 65:20; Zech. 14:17-19; Rev. 20:7-11.

*          *          *

…וּלְכַפֵּר/and in order to utterly atone for [Piel Infin. Constr. with ל prefix] עָוֹן/iniquity וּלְהָבִיא/and in order to cause to bring in [Hiphil Infin. with ל prefix] צֶדֶק/righteousness עֹֽלָמִים/everlasting…

“…and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and (in order) to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness…”

Comment: These things were undeniably accomplished by the Law-fulfilling sacrifice of the blood of Jesus: it made full atonement for sin, and brought everlasting righteousness to the believer.

*          *          *

…וְלַחְתֹּם/and (in order) to close/seal up [Qal Infin. Constr. with ל prefix] חָזֹון/vision וְנָבִיא/and prophecy…

“…and in order to close up vision and prophecy…”

Comment: Old Testament prophecy – that of Daniel’s people – ended at John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:13: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”

Luke 16:16: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.”

Old Testament prophets had the Holy Spirit “come upon” them. Beginning at John, prophets were “filled with the Holy Spirit.” The latter phrase is never used in the Old Testament, and the former is never used in the New. The old manner of prophesying had been closed up. However, the Latter Day acts of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-6 are comparable to former acts of the prophets Moses and Elijah, so what was closed up may be restored in the future.

*          *          *

…וְלִמְשֹׁחַ/and in order to anoint [Qal Infin. Constr. with ל prefix] קֹדֶשׁ/a Holy One קָֽדָשִֽׁים/of Holy Ones.

“…and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

Comment: Most translations erroneously add “the” – “the Most Holy” – which is incorrect, and leads to all kinds of false presumptions and speculations. The Hebrew prefix ה/“the” IS used when the Old Testament speaks about the Most Holy Place of the Temple. E.g. Ex. 26:33-34; 1 Kings 6:16; 7:50; 8:6; 1 Chr. 6:49; 2 Chr. 4:22; 5:7; Ezek. 41:4. But here an ה is notably omitted, because this phrase is yet another prophecy about the coming Messiah, not about a building. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit in its fullness, and thereby became the Melchizedek-order High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary. John 3:34-35; Heb. 5:5-10; 8:1-2

Summary

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy,

and (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings or (in order) to cause to complete sin/sin offering,

and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and (in order) to close up vision and prophecy,

and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

God provided this prophecy via Daniel to Jews living under the Law of Moses. Nothing in verse 24 makes any reference to the Church or to the End Times.

Gabriel has returned to provide Daniel further understanding about the consequences of his peopleʼs future pesha/rebellion against Godʼs law, which pesha was first shown to Daniel in his visionary revelation of Daniel 8. Therefore, before we go further along in this examination of Daniel 9:24-27, it will be helpful to review Daniel 8.

 

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Okay and thanks for your responses. I do believe your thoughts and interpretations are in the majority. Best wishes always!

Thanks Charlie, and best wishes to you as well.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

...

Ok, I agree, these 6 were the Messiah's God given mission to restore His people and His city. But not just to bring it back to the same position it was in just prior to the Babylonian captivity. Especially, since they continued to disobey God and thus would be punished for those 70 years.

The Messiah would fulfill all 6 of the requirements in 9:24, but of course, He would be crucified. But this too was always within His plan of salvation. I see this as a two fold set of events:

1) The Messiah came for His people and His city. And He did His part. 

2) The Jews did their part up to the 69th week. It was their mission to restore the physical things - the city, Temple, the walls, the streets, etc., as well as the feast days and the sabbatical cycles. Consequently, THEY CERTAINLY DID FULFILL THEIR MISSION. THEY COMPLETED THEIR PART AND THE ONLY ELEMENT TO BE RESTORED WAS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT IN THE FORM OF THE MESSIAH.

Shalom, Charlie744.

Okay, the first things I'd like to add to your understanding, are the two sets of prophecy regarding the Messiah of G-D:

The first set of prophecy is called "haMashiyach ben Yowceef " or "the Messiah son of Joseph." it is the suffering and dying Messiah, patterned after the Yowceef ("Joseph") of Genesis, who was sold into Egypt and was assumed dead by his father, Israel. Later, He was found to be ALIVE and SECOND-IN-COMMAND in Egypt! This set of prophecies were neglected and forgotten by the scribes and Pharisees in Yeeshuwa`s day.

The second set of prophecy, the set the Pharisees were looking for, is called "haMashiyach ben Daviyd " or "the Messian son of David." This is the set which predicted a victorious and reigning Messiah, patterned after His ancestor David, who was on the run from Sha`uwl ("Saul") but was victorious in all the skirmishes he faced, and was eventually accepted as (1) the King of the Jews, and (2) the King of all Israel. This dynasty was extended through his son, Shlomoh ("Solomon") who was also a King of kings (of sorts), having much wealth, and alliances, and much influence in the nations surrounding Israel, because of the wisdom G-D gave him.

These two sets of prophecy had been discussed by rabbis long before the Messiah arrived in His First Advent or First Coming. In fact, this is what Yochanan the Immerser ("John the Baptist") was asking about when He sent his disciples from prison to Yeeshuwa`: "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" He was asking, "Are you ONE Messiah coming in two stages, or are there TWO Messiahs, you being the 'suffering and dying Messiah,' because you're being rejected?" Yeeshuwa` responded by performing the miracles that were known would be associated with the "victorious and reigning Messiah." Yochanan was not "floundering in his faith," as some have taught. Yochanan just need some clarity about the two sets of prophecy! With that knowledge, he could better teach his own disciples about their Messiah.

In expecting the 2nd set of prophecies FIRST, the scribes and Pharisees made the grave error in forgetting that He must FIRST come fulfilling the 1st set of prophecies.

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3) The Messiah did away with the sacrificial services, the Temple, the sanctuary. THEIR MISSION WAS ALSO ENTIRELY FULFILLED AT HIS FIRST COMING. They no longer have a purpose on this earth. Today's Jews may believe a 3rd Temple will be build, but that is only because they have not accepted the Messiah. To them, it makes sense. But God's plan was fulfilled for all the spiritual elements (His mission), and the Jews had everthing ready to receive their Messiah.

This, too, is not exactly true. The Messiah did away with the NEED for the sacrificial services in the Temple, the sanctuary of God, because He was the FINAL Sacrifice acceptable to G-D for sin. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean there won't be sacrifices made in the New Temple, rebuilt as described in Ezekiel 40-44. The Levites EAT from the meat and grain and DRINK the wine of the sacrifices made in the Temple. The Bible tells us that the LORD LOVES the smell of the burnt sacrifices! Who doesn't like a good barbecue?! (See Genesis 8:21; Leviticus 2:2, 12; 6:15; 17:6; 23:13; Numbers 15:7, 10, 24; 18:17; 28:2, 8, 13, 24; 29:6; and Ezekiel 20:41.) The sacrifices described in Ezekiel aren't to "appease G-D!" They are for other reasons!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

4) The fact that they rejected their Messiah does not change anything that took place or was to take place at His first coming. They (the Jews) do not have to build another Temple, or reinstate the sacrificial services, etc., before they are back in standing with God. All they have to do is to accept Him as their Messiah - nothing else. And this will definitely happen.

That's not the issue; the prophecy, however, says,

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

This is what Yeeshuwa` quoted in Matthew 23:39. The "house of the LORD" IS what the children of Israel called the "Temple!" Therefore, for this to come true in the future, there must OF NECESSITY be a Temple, since the first and the second Temples were destroyed, the last one in 70 A.D!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

5) As a result of their rejection, His Good News would now be preached to the Gentiles --- all they had to do was accept His Word and the Testimony of Jesus - He was the Messiah and the only true God. They did not have to construct a Temple, a city, etc. After Jesus returned to His Father, the church was made of on all Jews. They did not have to construct a Temple, sacrificial services, etc. All they had to do was accept Him as their Messiah.

Correction: One should say "He was the Messiah and the only true Son of God."

For whatever reason, they SHALL construct a Temple again, because they must welcome Him FROM the Temple, according to the prophecy above. Good or bad, approved of G-D or not, they SHALL construct a Temple. In fact, they are READY TO GO!

They have all the Temple furniture ready; they have the Temple utensils ready; they have the priests' clothing ready; they have the sacrifices needed ready; they even have the building materials ready! All they need is the PLACE and the PERMISSION by the Israeli Government to build!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

6) If ANY Jew were to accept Jesus as their personal savior and Lord, the will be saved. God is not going to require ANY to build another Temple, reinstate the sacrificial services -that is why He came - to do away with them.

Not according to Scripture. He came to SUFFICE as the FINAL Sacrifice that satisfies the NEED for such sacrificial services, but don't forget that there are prophecies that should be taken literally about a future, ACTIVE Temple!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

This is true. I would ask you to look into chapter 10:13. I believe the angel that shut the mouth of the lion in chapter 6 is none other than Michael. After he assisted Gabriel, he would leave him alone once again in Persia.

 13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 

 

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

This is so true, but I look at this a little differently:

1) The term used here, "desolate or desolation," has nothing to do with the physical elements - the city, the Temple, the sanctuary or the sacrificial services, etc., They all have fulfilled their mission despite of their rejection of their Messiah. But as a result of this rejection, the Jews would become "desolate" with their God. Now, he was far away. They became desolate from their personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah.

No, this is a LITERAL "desolation." They were deprived of their Temple, and they were quite literally deported from their Land to other places within the Roman Empire. The city was EMPTIED of its people at that time, who were either killed or deported, and the city was left BARREN! Until 1948, the Land had been DESOLATE without the people who BELONGED there! Even today, there are portions of the Promised Land that still don't belong to the children of Israel! The "mountains of Israel," found in the prophecy in Ezekiel 36, are what is called "the West Bank" today! The kingdom of "Jordan" is land that was bequeathed to the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and 1/2 of the tribe of Manasseh! (See Numbers 32:33; 34:14; Deuteronomy 3:13; 29:8; Joshua 1:12; 4:12; 12:6; 13:7, 29; 18:7; 21:5, 6, 25, 27; 22:1, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 21;
1 Chronicles 5:18, 23, 26; 6:61, 70, 71; 12:31, 37; 26:32; and 27:20, 21.)

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

2) The purpose of the 3 part division was to identify those tasks that were necessary to fully restore Jerusalem, the city, the wall, the services, etc., as well as to reveal who's responsibility it was to restore them, and to identify the period within the 70 weeks when they would be restored. God wanted to carve up and even isolate those God given requirements or elements (9:24) that would remain unrestored until the last week, could only be restored by the Messiah and He specifically identified those 6 in 9:24. He purposefully started these prophetic verses with those 6 requirements that He needed to fulfill. There certainly are many other prophecies in the other verses (9:25-27), but they speak about those things that will take place either at the cross, or as a result of the cross. But none of them would impact / affect / alter / limit His ability to fulfill His mission (9:24).

While it is true that the Messiah STARTED fulfilling these six purposes for the 70 Sevens of years, they are NOT YET FINISHED!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3) C0nsequently, Jesus fulfilled all 6 of His requirements - it was scheduled for a one week (7 years) period, the last week in the 70 weeks prophecy, but He also knew He would be cut off. He fulfilled all 6 before He returned to His Father. I don't believe anyone would contend He had to be physically on earth to fulfill them...

Well, He HIMSELF said He would have to be on the earth to finish them!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

4) Once again, your comment on the "clock" stopping is true. But this is  one of the 6 elements / requirements of the Messiah. This is entirely a requirement of the Jews. If THEY disobey Him, the clock would stop (as it stopped in Babylon during the 3rd Great Jubilee. Only when THEY were back in Jerusalem and in standing with their God did the clock begin again, and the 3rd Great Jubilee was in fact completed in 457 BC. At of course, this began the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle which was supposed to end at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. However, because the JEWS rejected their Messiah, the clock would stop at 486.5 years of the required 490 years. This means the 4th Great Jubilee is still incomplete, and thus, the Messiah can not return until it is completed. But God can not complete the 490 years - only the Jews are able to return to the Lord for the remaining 3.5 years. And when they do, then the Messiah returns.

I concur, sort of. The Messiah can return when the Jews welcome Him back, as the Messiah predicted; when He returns, THEN He will offer His Kingdom to the Jews for the remaining 3.5 years. And, when they accept Him as their King, He will proceed to His mission to reign over all the Kingdom of Israel.

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

5) As you know, the Jews rejected their Messiah at His first coming. But the Scriptures tell us at least two things:

       a) That their (Jews) eyes would be blinded and they would see Jesus as their Messiah. This can also been seen in chapter 10 of Daniel (symbolically) when Daniel could not possibly understand or recognize how his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would come to the earth in the form of a man and be crucified. 

This is true, up to a point. However, one can find other prophecies that speak to this issue, such as Zechariah 12:

Zechariah 12:1-14 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel," saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall be herniated), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,"

and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;

the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

These same four names, David, Nathan, Levi, and Shimei (Semei in Greek), are found in the LINEAGE of the Messiah in Luke 3! Thus, this will occur AFTER the Resurrection!

Isaiah adds,

Isaiah 66:8 (KJV)

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

If they had not already accepted that Yeeshuwa` was the Messiah they crucified, they WILL SEE HIM, and RECOGNIZE HIM for the piercing

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

       b) And this brings us to the second point - the JEWS HAD NO CHOICE IN THIS!!!!!! It was God's decision to blind their eyes from the foundation of the world. This was a "divine" action by God within His plan of salvation. 

Well, this would certainly be accepted by the Jews as an EXCUSE, but they were still held responsible for their rejection!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

       c) This also means that when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (only God knows when), He will once again bring in a "divine" action and remove the blindness of their eyes. They will then recognize the One they have pierced.

Yes. See Zechariah 12 above.

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I certainly understand there are many, many Jews that have accepted Jesus as their Messiah, but whether this "removal of their blindness" takes place over a certain period of time, or comes about with a massive and immediate "unblindness" only God knows. I think it will be both - at a certain appointed time, He will make their eyes open in mass, if you will, to reveal how He fulfills this prophecy without anyone not noticing it is a "divine" type event.

No, we Gentile believers are EXPECTED to share the mercy we have received with them! That is our TASK! (See Romans 11.)

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

6) I don't believe God "rescinded" His offer. I think the offer was and is always  on the table. Many Jews have accepted His offer since the cross.

No, I'm talking about His offer of the KINGDOM to Israel! Consider the FIRST chapter in Mark's Gospel:

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

He didn't have to explain what this "gospel of rhe kingdom of God" was! They already KNEW what it was! He didn't need to explain; He simply said, "Turn yourselves around 180 degrees and BELIEVE the gospel!" This is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ." Who even accepted that He was indeed the "Christ?" Who even knew at this point that He was going to die? How many at this point had ever heard of a resurrection, let alone that the Christ would be resurrected? No, that's not what this "gospel of the Kingdom of God" was. So, how did the people know about this? Simple: They READ ABOUT IT in the prophecies!

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good (gospel), that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, "Thy God reigneth!"

THAT'S the good news about the Kingdom of G-D! "Your G-D reigns!" Every Jew was familiar with the prophecies about their future Kingdom and the coming of the victorious and reigning Messiah of G-D!

THIS is what Yeeshuwa` offered to the children of Israel! Call it "tabled," if you prefer, but it was no longer given to that generation of the children of Israel, particularly those of His own tribe, Yhudah, the "Jews!"

It won't be offered again until the Messiah Yeeshuwa` returns!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

7) If Jesus did not fulfill His 6 requirements at His first coming, then NO ONE will be saved - not Jew or Gentile. They have relied on Him completing His 6 requirements no less than the Jews. And there will be billions of both Jews and Gentils that will refuse to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior - everyone since the cross has the same opportunity to decide. There is NO man mande event needed to take place before they can be saved.

"Saved" is the WRONG WORD. When God extends His redemption to an individual, He "JUSTIFIES" that person. THAT'S the correct word, according to the Bible. One must not be "saved"; one must be "JUSTIFIED BY GOD!"

When the Messiah returns and RESCUES His people both the believing Gentiles and the children of Israel who welcome Him back, THAT is "SALVATION." "To save" is "ro deliver" or "to rescue!"

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

8) I certainly hope that there are enough Christians out there that have the God given blessings to show the Jews that their Messiah is Jesus. That as result of their changes in their life, they have become better people, true followers of God, but there are billions of Christians in name only. Consequentely, we are really going to need God's help in showing the Jews that Jesus is their Messiah (if they were to look at my life, I am quite sure there is a problem there - we really need a "Damascus" experience to bring them back to their God.

They shall have it when they see the nail-prints in His hands and feet!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

9) To be candid, I think it might be easier to have the Jews recognize Jesus as their Messiah than the 1.3 BILLION Roman Catholics that are convinced in the infallibility of the papacy, forgiveness of sins, and that the only way to salvation is through the RCC. They seem like an immovable object and do not realize just how far the RCC is from the word of God.

Here, you are absolutely right! The RCC as a whole doesn't understand the "justification by G-D!" There are a FEW within their ranks who do understand, but not the whole.

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Again, the Messiah fulfilled all 6 of His requirements - consequently, the "offer" has been made to both Jew and Gentile. It is available to all mankind. There is no "offer 2.0." God has done His perfect work, and now each one (whether Jew of Gentile) must make their decision. 

No. The Kingdom of God is to ISRAEL! Gentiles who are graffed into that Olive Tree as "branches from a wild olive tree" partake of the goodness of that Kingdom, but they are NOT the "natural branches," those who are actually children of Israel. Those of us who are Gentiles ADOPTED into Yeeshuwa`s family, the Jews, are made "Jews" by the blood of the Messiah.

We can recognize ourselves to be among His subjects for His Kingdom, but HIS KINGDOM IS NOT HERE, YET!

Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

He also said through a parable:

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade) till I come.'

14"But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will NOT have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading."

The Kingdom of God is NOT HERE, YET! The Kingdom offer returns WITH the Messiah!

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The ONLY remaining event that MUST be completed before the Messiah returns is the completion of the 4th Great Jubilee. And God has already placed that in His plan of Salvation. After He removes their blindness, they will mourn in sackcloth and then go out into the world as Paul did and preach the Messiah, Jesus. This will last for 3.5 years (in Revelation) and then the Messiah. 

But this "offer" that you speak of... it was "offered" at the cross for all. The Jews rejected it and it was then offered to the Gentils - same offer, and they have the exact same decision to make. And as you know, there are billions who have rejected His offer since the cross.

No. The KINGDOM offer was NOT offered at the cross! Again, while we can call Him our Lord and King prematurely, He will NOT be King until He returns! That is NOT the "offer" that billions have rejected. The offer is God's JUSTIFICATION for an individual! It's the GREAT EXCHANGE in which Yeeshuwa` becomes our sin and we become His righteousness, or rather, the righteousness of God within Yeeshuwa`. (2 Corinthians 5:21).

So, when He looks at us, after the Great Exchange, He no longer sees our sin, but He sees His Son's righteousness, just as at the cross, He didn't see His Righteous Son anymore but saw OUR SIN! And, we read, "Yet, it PLEASED the LORD to bruise Him! HE hath put Him to grief!" (Isaiah 53:10) "He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be SATISFIED!" (Isaiah 53:11).

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

But God will restore the Jews sight and bring them back into His fold. He will never abandone His people. All of this was in His plan from the foundation of the world.

Best wishes always, Charlie

Amen to that!

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22 hours ago, douggg said:

1John2:18 was long before there was any RCC, pope, papacy.    So them John was speaking to did not get the notion that antichrist (singular) shall come - from any of those sources.

Where they got the notion that a singular antichrist shall come - was from John himself, who wrote in John 5:43 of Jesus saying the Jews will would accept another as their King of Israel messiah (implied).

The Jews rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah, and the religious leaders even mocked him in Mark 15:32 referring to Jesus as "Christ the king of Israel".    Also in Matthew 27:42.

So the person who becomes the Antichrist will do so by being anointed the King of Israel.

----------------------------------

the person first emerges as the little horn person, leader of a pack of ten EU leaders.

then following Gog/Magog becomes the prince who shall come.

then is anointed the King of Israel, becoming the Antichrist.

then is revealed as the man of sin, ending his time as being the Antichrist role.

then becomes the beast-king of Revelation 13, dictator over the EU.

John 19:15, "We have no king but Caesar."

Also see John 19:12.