The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Paul River]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Paul River.

Not so, brother. If one will look carefully at Matthew 13:24-30, and the explanation the Messiah makes of it in verses 36-43, one will find that the "tares" come OUT OF HIS KINGDOM, which doesn't begin until the Messiah's second coming! Revelation 20:4-6 FOLLOW Revelation 14:1. The "harvest" of Matthew 13 comes AFTER the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgment! It is then that the "wheat" are ushered into the FATHER'S Kingdom in Revelation 21!

I would say that the Tares have been pulled out already from the time of Revelation 14 - In Rev 12, Satan is cast out of heaven, and in Rev 13, the beast and the antichrist have been ejected from their strongholds. . . to be stacked up and burned.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Paul River said:

I would say that the Tares have been pulled out already from the time of Revelation 14 - In Rev 12, Satan is cast out of heaven, and in Rev 13, the beast and the antichrist have been ejected from their strongholds. . . to be stacked up and burned.

Shalom, Paul River.

No, listen to more than the book of Revelation: Prophecy is THROUGHOUT the Bible, even in the New Testament! Read it: (Also, note that I use GREEN for narration, PURPLE for the words of G-D the Father, RED for the words of the Messiah, and BLUE for the words of anyone else. If Yeeshuwa` ["Jesus"] is quoting Himself from a future time, I will put the quote in ITALICS. I should also add that if there is a quote within a quote, all by Yeeshuwa`, then the inmost quote will go back to roman letters.)

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (The Kingdom from the sky) is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."' "

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38
The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and
the reapers are the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This is the MOST IDEAL of the parables that Yeeshuwa` taught! He gives a list of the elements within the parable to His disciples! If one has ever taken enough math to see that word problems can be translated into math symbols by substituing verbs of being (is, are, was, were, etc.) with an equal sign ("="). Do the same in this list of elements:

He that soweth the good seed = the Son of man; 38
The field = the world;
the good seed = the children of the kingdom; but
the tares = the children of the wicked one; 39
The enemy that sowed them = the devil;
the harvest = the end of the world (age); and
the reapers = the angels. 

Then, all one has to do is SUBSTITUTE the equated thing into the parable:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (The Kingdom from the sky) is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the angels of the Son of man came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this.'

"The angels said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the world (age): and in the time of the end of the world (age) I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."' "

It's that simple. Then supplement it with His explanation to His disciples:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

We can also supplement this with Paul's words in the Resurrection Chapter:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah, Yeeshuwa` or "Jesus") risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (the Father)) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest [obvious] that he [the Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him [Christ].)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And, one shouldn't forget Gabriel's words to Mary, a restatement of the Davidic Covenant):

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous, a transliteration of the Hebrew name "Yeeshuwa` "). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; AND OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END."

Yeeshuwa`, the Messiah of God the Father, will build the Empire for His Father during the first 1,000 years of His reign. Then, He will turn over the WORLDWIDE EMPIRE to His Father, and He will continue to reign over the house of Ya`aqoV ("Jacob") forever!

During the transition, which are the last few verses of Revelation 20, that will be the "end of the world (age)." At that time, the FIRE occurs; the Unjust Dead are raised to life; they will stand before the Messiah (as the Judge of all) at the Great White Throne Judgment, and they will be sentenced to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, or the Lake of Burning Sulfur! Then, G-D the Father will recreate the world as the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem will descend to the New Earth, and eternity begins.

Can you see how all these passages dove-tail together? One must fit them ALL into one's scenario, for ALL of them are G-D's inspired Word!

If one gets the major points right first, the minor points will be a LOT easier to manage.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[Paul River]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Paul River.

No, listen to more than the book of Revelation: Prophecy is THROUGHOUT the Bible, even in the New Testament! . . . 

Yeeshuwa`, the Messiah of God the Father, will build the Empire for His Father during the first 1,000 years of His reign. Then, He will turn over the WORLDWIDE EMPIRE to His Father, and He will continue to reign over the house of Ya`aqoV ("Jacob") forever!

During the transition, which are the last few verses of Revelation 20, that will be the "end of the world (age)." At that time, the FIRE occurs; the Unjust Dead are raised to life; they will stand before the Messiah (as the Judge of all) at the Great White Throne Judgment, and they will be sentenced to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, or the Lake of Burning Sulfur! Then, G-D the Father will recreate the world as the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem will descend to the New Earth, and eternity begins.

Can you see how all these passages dove-tail together? One must fit them ALL into one's scenario, for ALL of them are G-D's inspired Word!

If one gets the major points right first, the minor points will be a LOT easier to manage.

I appreciate the effort, Retrobyter . . . but:

Let me explain my escatology hermeneutic and see if it helps fit the few passages you have cited here:  

I believe the grand theme of the book of Revelation is “The Heavenly Tabernacle” as described in Hebrews 8:3-5, 9:11-14. Revelation is about worship in the Heavenly Tabernacle, where there are 10 celebrations of worship throughout the book, and after each celebration of worship, something remarkable happens. Just as there were 10 plagues in the Exodus account until Pharaoh let the people of Israel go, in Revelation, the enemies of God are driven out of their strongholds and judged through the course of these 10 celebrations of worship.

I would suggest these 10 celebrations of worship are:

1) Revelation 1:10-16
2) Revelation 4:8-11
3) Revelation 5:8-14
4) Revelation 7:9-12
5) Revelation 8:1-5
6) Revelation 11:15-17
7) Revelation 12:10-12
8) Revelation 14:2-3
9) Revelation 15:3-5
10) Revelation 19:1-6

The book of Hebrews discusses how Christ is now the High Priest in the order of MELCHIZEDEK, and the Heavenly Tabernacle from chapter 5 to chapter 13, and here we find specific references throughout the book of Revelation regarding the Heavenly Tabernacle / Temple in Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 19, 13:6, 14:15, 15:5, 6, 8, 16:1, 17, 21:3, 22. However, we can also find specific references to or allusions to all of the elements within the Wilderness Tabernacle / Temple, including: The Menorah Rev 1:10 - 16, The Brazen Sea Rev 4:2, 15:2, The Lamb Sacrifice Rev 5:5-6, The Priesthood Rev 5:9, 10, The Altar Rev 6:9-10, 8:3, The Ark of the Covenant Rev 11:19, and The Showbread Table Rev 14:14-20.

So the book of Revelation is a kind of instruction on how God will use worship to drive the enemies of God out of their strongholds, and judged. Here in chapter 14 we have Messiah and his Holy Ones (aka 144,000) show up on Mt Zion, just as it prophecied in Daniel 8:13, Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:31, 25:31, and Jude 14. The 144,000 sing a new song (Revelation 14:2-3) no one could learn except the 144,000, and then the harvest event happens in chapter 14 with the wheat and grape harvests. The reason for this specific imagery is because God is preparing His Showbread table.

One more celebration of worship (Revelation 15:3-5) before the anti-creation event of Rev 16, and then Mystery Babalon, The beast, the antichrist (and then after the 1000-year reign of Messiah on earth), satan is finally thrown in the fire.

So many things line up in Biblical prophecy for this Rev 14 harvest event to be defined as the rapture.

1) The harvest imagery of Messiah's wheat and Tares parable in Matthew 13
2) The ascension of the antichrist in Rev 13
3) The return of Messiah with His Holy ones in Revelation 14

 

 

[WilliamL]

20 hours ago, Keras said:

It may be your desire to ascend to heaven, but God has the final say and for Him to take humans to that Spiritual place, is simply impossible. 

 

19 hours ago, Keras said:

 But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12

Make up your mind. God can't take humans to heaven...well, except for two.

If He can take two, He is certainly able to take more than that.

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Paul River said:

Thank you for your contribution, William, but the connections you are making to Firstfruits are too esoteric and share no real connections to the text here in Revelation 14. Messiah is the first-fruits 1Co 15:20, as are the 144,000 Rev 14:4 but the harvest of Revelation 14:14-20 is the application of the Wheat and the Tares of Matthew 13:24-30, and a result of Messiah's second coming Revelation 14:1. 

Sorry you cannot handle the esoteric passages of the Word, of which there are lots. Often biblically called mysteries.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Make up your mind. God can't take humans to heaven...well, except for two.

If He can take two, He is certainly able to take more than that.

The two Witnesses will be raised when Jesus Returns, they will meet Him in the clouds, in the earths atmosphere along with all the Christians as per 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:31

I reiterate Jesus' Words: NO ONE goes to heaven, excepting for the One who came from there.   Any other ideas are unscriptural and cannot happen

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

The two Witnesses will be raised when Jesus Returns, they will meet Him in the clouds, in the earths atmosphere along with all the Christians as per 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:31

I reiterate Jesus' Words: NO ONE goes to heaven, excepting for the One who came from there.   Any other ideas are unscriptural and cannot happen

1Corinthians12:

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.    kjv

Was that man in Christ consciously aware of being in the third heaven ?

I think he had a body, but not the same as his earthly body.   "such an one caught up" i.e such as one raptured - to the third heaven.

[douggg]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

I reiterate Jesus' Words: NO ONE goes to heaven, excepting for the One who came from there.   Any other ideas are unscriptural and cannot happen

No man was "in Christ" at the time of Jesus saying in John 3:13...

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.   kjv

Please provide the 1989 REB verse that you use.   And annotate it, "1989 REB" like I did above for the King James Version.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by douggg

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

The two Witnesses will be raised when Jesus Returns, they will meet Him in the clouds, in the earths atmosphere along with all the Christians as per 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:31

Rev. 11 doesn't say these things at all. It says "they ascended into heaven." 11:12 Nothing about Jesus' return at that time, nothing about the earth's atmosphere, nothing about other Christians.

9 hours ago, Keras said:

I reiterate Jesus' Words: NO ONE goes to heaven, excepting for the One who came from there.   Any other ideas are unscriptural and cannot happen

John 3:13 does not say this. It says "no one has gone up into heaven..." Perfect = past tense, indicating nothing about what might come in the future. 

Why do you keep misrepresenting the Word? 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 11 doesn't say these things at all. It says "they ascended into heaven." 11:12 Nothing about Jesus' return at that time, nothing about the earth's atmosphere, nothing about other Christians.

John 3:13 does not say this. It says "no one has gone up into heaven..." Perfect = past tense, indicating nothing about what might come in the future. 

Why do you keep misrepresenting the Word? 

William, in his statement, Keras is using present tense "goes", but he is implying future tense "will go" in his no rapture to heaven position.

While in the kjv , Jesus said "hath", i.e. has, past tense.     Of course at the time Jesus made that statement no man was yet "in Christ".

When the rapture/resurrection event takes place, it will be for the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ",  changed and resurrected into everlasting eternal bodies to forever be with Lord.

So will Jesus be in heaven while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth ?

The answer is "yes" , and that is where the raptured/resurrected in Christ will be also.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by douggg