The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Keras]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

So will Jesus be in heaven while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth ?

The answer is "yes" , and that is where the raptured/resurrected in Christ will be also.

Pure opinion. Jesus is in heaven now, but humans never go to live there. 

An opinion that fails any scriptural test of how and when it would happen.

Can't people see how the Lord will protect and keep safe His people during the GT?  Revelation 12:14 states it plainly: But she, [that is: the followers of Jesus] was given the wings of a mighty eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the wilderness, where she is to be looked after for three and a half years, out of reach of the serpent. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Keras

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Can't people see how the Lord will protect and keep safe His people during the GT?  Revelation 12:14 states it plainly: But she, [that is: the followers of Jesus] was given the wings of a mighty eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the wilderness, where she is to be looked after for three and a half years, out of reach of the serpent. 

The rapture/resurrection event is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ".

There is no resurrection in Revelation 12:14.     It is not the rapture/resurrection event.

Revelation 12:14 is referring to them (the Jews) living in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see that abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, Matthew 24:15-21.

btw, when copying and pasting a scriptural verse, please include the translation at the end - like kjv for example.

If you are posting a scriptural verse from the 1989 REB - then include 1989 REB .

Edited December 7, 2023 by douggg

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

will Jesus be in heaven while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth ?

The answer is "yes" , and that is where the raptured/resurrected in Christ will be also.

Agree with all that you wrote up to your last sentence. Jesus will be in heaven up until the end of the trib = the sixth seal, at which point He reveals His Parousia = Rev. 6:16-17 & 1:7, when the resurrection and rapture take place. Post-trib, pre-wrath.

For a comprehensive review of the NT doctrine of the Parousia, go here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

Edited December 7, 2023 by WilliamL

[douggg]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Agree with all that you wrote up to your last sentence. Jesus will be in heaven up until the end of the trib = the sixth seal, at which point He reveals His Parousia = Rev. 6:16-17 & 1:7, when the resurrection and rapture take place. Post-trib, pre-wrath.

Jesus will be in heaven until Revelation 19.

In Revelation 6:12-17, the sixth seal, Jesus is still in heaven, as his appearance there appears to them here on the earth as the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Matthew 24:30a).

Matthew 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   kjv

 

 

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Here in the sixth seal, they are in great fear, when they see the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?    kjv

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Here in Revelation 19, after being convinced in Revelation 16:13-16 to make war on Jesus, they have gathered to make war on Jesus.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. kjv

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[Keras]

5 hours ago, douggg said:

he rapture/resurrection event is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ".

As you fail to support such an outlandish idea as a 'rapture/resurrection', with any scriptural proof, I just assume it is a figment of your fevered imagination. 

It is gross error and a wilful messing with the Book of Revelation, to place the Sixth Seal at the glorious Return of Jesus. 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

As you fail to support such an outlandish idea as a 'rapture/resurrection', with any scriptural proof, I just assume it is a figment of your fevered imagination. 

It is gross error and a wilful messing with the Book of Revelation, to place the Sixth Seal at the glorious Return of Jesus. 

keras, please try to control your emotions.

When are you going to provide a copy and paste of John 3:13 from the 1989 REB translation you are using ?

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ".    Revelation 12:14, therefore, is not the rapture/resurrection event.  

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1Thessalonians:

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

kjv

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[Keras]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive

The dead Christians are only the martyrs killed during the Great Trib. Rev 20:4-6

The alive Christians are mostly those Christians who were taken to the place of safety.

None of them go to live in heaven, they all go with Jesus into the Millennium. 

My posts to you may seem bit heavy, but I am forceful with anyone who constantly and blatantly refuses to take any kind of correction.  I see it as being kind to you, as when you stand before God in Judgment, He may not be so kind. James 3:1

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

The dead Christians are only the martyrs killed during the Great Trib. Rev 20:4-6

No that is not the 1Thesslaonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event, because there is no changing of them who are alive "in Christ" in Revelation 20:4-6.

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ". 

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The dead "in Christ" in the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 are all Christians who have died up to the time the event takes place.

There is nothing in 1Thesslaonians5:15-18 about the dead "in Christ" being the great tribulation martyrs.

The rapture/resurrection event will take place before the great tribulation begins.

 

 

Quote

My posts to you may seem bit heavy, but I am forceful with anyone who constantly and blatantly refuses to take any kind of correction.  I see it as being kind to you, as when you stand before God in Judgment, He may not be so kind. James 3:1

 

keras, please try to control your emotions.

 

Instead, post a copy of the 1989 REB verse of John 3:13 that you use.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, douggg said:

Jesus will be in heaven until Revelation 19.

Jesus will alone slay an Edomite/Islamic army, in the process of which His garments will be stained with blood, before He ever returns with already blood-stained garments in Rev. 19.

19. When Does the Lord Smite Edom?

Details Latter-Day events upon earth, including the Lord’s punishment of Edom, that are little understood by the Church. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1135-when-does-the-lord-smite-edom/

[douggg]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus will alone slay an Edomite/Islamic army, in the process of which His garments will be stained with blood, before He ever returns with already blood-stained garments in Rev. 19.

19. When Does the Lord Smite Edom?

Details Latter-Day events upon earth, including the Lord’s punishment of Edom, that are little understood by the Church. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1135-when-does-the-lord-smite-edom/

The blood on Jesus's garments as He descends to earth is that of the martyred great tribulation saints.

Revelation 6:10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?