Daniel's 70 Weeks - WITHOUT ANY NT SOURCING

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

In part.   In Daniel 9:24, Gabriel informed Daniel other things that will happen in 70 weeks as well.   Such as, the fulfillment of the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn's transgression of desolation to take place at the time of the end.

Chapter 9 is all about the restoration of the Jews back from Babylon. They were taken captive in 606BC and after their return to Jerusalem, in 457BC, Artaxerses issued his command to the Jews to restore the city and the Temple. This is the date that begins a few critical events. The time of 457BC begins:

1) the 4th and final Great Jubilee Cycle that will end exactly 490 years later (or around 33/34 AD assuming the Jews are in good standing with their God). 

2) this is also the start of the 70 weeks of years prophecy provided in 9:24-27. It too will end exactly in 33/34 AD. This will represent the final week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. At the beginning of the last week of years, the Messiah will be baptized in the Jordan by John and begin His ministry. The last week was "set aside" by God for Jesus to fulfill His God given missions (9:24), as well as cause other events to take place as a result of the cross.

3) The 457BC date is also the beginning of the "vision" you mentioned. But there are two separate and disctinct "visions" recorded in Daniel, and they are NOT the same.

               Here is a breakdown of the visions in chapter 8:

Verses where Chazon is found

Daniel 8:1: A vision appeared to me."

Daniel 8:2: "I saw in the vision."

Daniel 8:13: "How long will the vision be?"

Daniel 8:15: "had seen the vision."

Daniel 8:17: "The vision refers to the time of the end.

Daniel 8:26: "Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future."

 

Verses where Mareh is found

Daniel 8:16: "Make this man understand the vision."

Daniel 8:26: "The vision of the evenings and mornings."

Daniel 8:27: "Astonished at the vision, but no one understood it."

 

The six mentions of the "chazon" vision above, reflect the "long term vision." It begins in 457BC and ends at the second coming of the Messiah. 

The three mentions of the "mareh" vision above, reflect the "short term vision," or might be referred to as a "sight or appearance" type vision. This is critical since it speaks directly to the coming Messiah - His appearance. 

 

The "chazon" vision begins in 457 BC and goes to the end of time,

The "mareh" vision refers to the "sight or appearance" of the Messiah DURING THE LAST WEEK OF HIS MINISTRY,

The 70 weeks of years  prophecy is WITHIN THE "chazon" vision, The "mareh" vision is within the 70 weeks of years prophecy (not a vision).

The 4th and final Great Jubilee Cycle also has the exact same beginning and end time as the 70 weeks of years prophecy, which is why all of the above reveal the 70 weeks of years prophecy does and can not have a "gap" anywhere within the 3 sectioned time periods - the "bracketed" left and right time period established for these 70 weeks of years prophecy is FIRST SET BY GOD AT THE BEGINNING OF 9:24. Then, God carves up those 70 weeks into 3 separate, continous periods. 

In the first section (7 weeks) God reveals all the physical elements that must be restored after Babylon destroyed the city, the Temple, the walls, etc. These could ONLY be accomplished / fulfill by the Jews during the first 49 years. Further, only the Jews could reestablish all the Sabbatical Cycles (weekly, Jubilee, Great Jubilee, etc.,) which are the non-physical elements that  must be restored BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH. This was all purposeful. The Jews had their God given mission to restore these things, and they were completely successful. All the city, the Temple, and every piece of furniture within the Sanctuary and the Temple area were completed BY THE END OF THE 69TH WEEK. (This is why God carved the 70 weeks into 3 separate sections).

There is ONLY one piece of furniture that was yet to be completed or restored in the Sanctuary as a result of the Babylonian destruction -it was the Ark of the Covenant and of course, the Jews could not possibly provide the ARK. This was the very first piece of furniture taken by  Jeremiah so the Babylonians would not take it back to Babylon, and it would be the last piece of furniture to be restored in the sanctuary. And ONLY God had the ability to restore this. (again, the perfect reason why the 70 weeks and specifically the final wee is continuous). The Messiah would arrive on the FIRST DAY OF THE LAST WEEK (the beginning of the 70th week) and be baptized in the Jordan and He would serve as the restoration of the presence of God in the Sanctuary (Ark of the covenant). Now, ALL things have been restored and the Messiah would begin His ministry.

So, this is the backdrop before one starts to interpret 9:24-27. It is all about the restoration of the Jews, His city, the Levitical ceremonies, etc., after Babylon. However, (and only God knew this), it woiuld also reveal the Jews rejection of their Messiah and those events that were caused by their decision. Now, God's Word and the Testimony of Jesus will go  out to the world - to both the Jews and Gentiles - all those who would accept Him.

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

Charlie,  a Jew living back in Daniel's time would have looked at Daniel 9 this way.

1.  From the time of Daniel receiving the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

2. 49 years till the order given to restore and build the city

3. Plus another 434 years unto Messiah.   Who will be killed.

4. then the temple and city would be destroyed again.

5. And rebuilt again.

6. after which, the prince who shall come will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.  

Who will stop the daily sacrifice in the midst of the 7 years, and by abominations he will make temple mount where the daily sacrifice take place, desolate - from the praise and worship of the God of Israel.

desolate, all the way to end of the 70 weeks (490 years).    When that determined (God's judgment) will be poured out on the prince who shall come and the abominations, there on the desolated temple mount.

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A Jew living back in Daniel's day would not have known what you presented.   What you presented sources information from the NT and recorded historical events.

A Jew living back at the time of Daniel would have had other prophecies given in the other chapters in Daniel and the Tanach.    That is what they had to work with.

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by douggg

[douggg]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The Messiah would arrive on the FIRST DAY OF THE LAST WEEK (the beginning of the 70th week) and be baptized in the Jordan and He would serve as the restoration of the presence of God in the Sanctuary (Ark of the covenant). Now, ALL things have been restored and the Messiah would begin His ministry.

Charlie, you are inserting your personal view and sourcing the NT.

There is nothing in Daniel 9 about the length of the Messiah's ministry.

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What the text says is that Messiah arrives after 7 weeks plus 62 weeks.  

 After 62 weeks (434 years), the Messiah would be cutoff, killed.

The difference between his arrival and being cutoff is not given.

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The covenant to be confirmed for 7 years, a Jew living back then at the time of Daniel would recognize as the Mt. Sinai covenant because of what Moses said for all future leaders of Israel to do.... on a 7 year cycle.... in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Edited January 11, 2024 by douggg

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

Charlie, you are inserting your personal view and sourcing the NT.

Everything I am saying is found within the verses of chapter 9. 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

There is nothing in Daniel 9 about the length of the Messiah's ministry.

Certainly there is. The total period is given of 70 weeks. He will arrive AFTER 7 and 62 weeks. Meaning, He arrives at the very beginning of the last 7 years. Then, He is “cut off” in the “midst of the week” (last week of the prophecy). 
 
He was given the final week of the prophecy to fulfill His mission, but was cut short exactly in the middle of the week. 

 

 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

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What the text says is that Messiah arrives after 7 weeks plus 62 weeks.  

 After 62 weeks (434 years), the Messiah would be cutoff, killed.

The difference between his arrival and being cutoff is not given.

See above. Quite clear He was “cut off” in the middle of the week (this is AFTER He arrives (AFTER  week 69).

 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

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The covenant to be confirmed for 7 years, a Jew living back then at the time of Daniel would recognize as the Mt. Sinai covenant because of what Moses said for all future leaders of Israel to do.... on a 7 year cycle.... in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The covenant is to be “confirmed or strengthened” (an existing covenant or the one given the Jews at Mt Sinai). It is the one prophesied in Jeremiah 31:41-34. There is absolutely nothing in chapter 9 about a anti-Christ!

These verses were and are only speaking of the coming Messiah-they flow together and speak of the restoration of all things now from Babylon. The Messiah is the final piece of furniture to be restored in the Sanctuary. He will “confirm” the Mt. Sinai covenant DURING THE LAST 7 YEAR PERIOD OF THE 70 weeks- NOT a covenant lasting 7 years but a covenant confirmed DURING THE LAST 7 years. 
 

It is ALL written about Jesus and what He will go through in or during the last 7 years of the prophecy. And that is exactly what history tells us that took place. 

There is NO mention, implied, inferred, discussed found within chapter 9 of another figure as many / most have inserted as some evil, mystical anti-Christ. This is a 70 year prophecy that has no gaps within it. There is not one such time prophecy in the Scriptures that is treated as such. 
 

Man (Jesuit priest Ribera) created THIS FUTURIST THEORY in the 16th century. 
 

The “he” in 9:27 is “He” not some “he” that has to be inserted AND placed OUTSIDE those 70 years. 
 

The ONLY verse within 9:24-27 that is found to take place OUTSIDE the 70 weeks prophecy is the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Meaning this was CAUSED by the Jews rejection of their Messiah WITHIN the prophecy (had to have the cross that caused the Temple’s destruction BEFORE 70AD. 
 

It is the “people” of the coming “prince” (papacy) that will destroy the Temple. Titus and the pagan Roman people will destroy the Temple - it will take place some 430 years BEFORE the papacy takes power. 
 

 

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

There is NO mention, implied, inferred, discussed found within chapter 9 of another figure as many / most have inserted as some evil, mystical anti-Christ. This is a 70 year prophecy that has no gaps within it. There is not one such time prophecy in the Scriptures that is treated as such. 

The concept of the Antichrist is in the NT.   According to the rules of this discussion, we are not allowed to source the NT.

A Jew living at Daniel's time would have understood that the prince who shall come is someone other than the messiah.   The Jew would not have realized that the prince who shall come is the NT Antichrist.

And because the prince who shall come stops the daily sacrifice like the time of the end little horn will do - a Jew living Daniel's time would connect the little horn as being the prince who shall come.

The covenant to be confirmed in Daniel 9:27 is for 7 years, so the Jew would know that is the Mt. Sinai covenant, which also established the daily sacrifices.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by douggg

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

The concept of the Antichrist is in the NT.   According to the rules of this discussion, we are not allowed to source the NT.

A Jew living at Daniel's time would have understood that the prince who shall come is someone other than the messiah.   The Jew would not have realized that the prince who shall come is the NT Antichrist.

And because the prince who shall come stops the daily sacrifice like the time the end little horn will do - a Jew living Daniel's time would connect the little horn as being the prince who shall come.

The covenant to be confirmed in Daniel 9:27 for 7 years, so the Jew would know that is the Mt. Sinai covenant, which also established the daily sacrifices.

 

 

I don’t think you understood what I was offering earlier, which is why I mentioned we should not continue. 
 

First, you nor I could possibly imagine what the Jews were thinking at the time of Christ OTHER THAN they were expecting their Messiah to come soon.

The process was for the two of us (and anyone else) to place ourselves back at that time and ONLY have access to the OT (meaning the Jews would not have Revelation or Matthew to try and interpret Daniel. 
 

Above, you claim the Jew WOULD HAVE understood the “Prince to come” would be the anti-Christ.” Really?

They had to first understand that there had to be a “Christ” to begin with… 

There is NO anti-Christ figure in Daniel or any other book of the Bible. There IS an anti-Christ spirit that speaks and acts against God, but NO literal anti-Christ. Yet, the one that is so clearly described by God in Daniel 7,8,11, etc., along with the things he will do and say against God, AND how God identifies his timing AND how long he will be on the earth is completely ignored (little horn). 
 

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

These verses were and are only speaking of the coming Messiah-they flow together and speak of the restoration of all things now from Babylon. The Messiah is the final piece of furniture to be restored in the Sanctuary. He will “confirm” the Mt. Sinai covenant DURING THE LAST 7 YEAR PERIOD OF THE 70 weeks- NOT a covenant lasting 7 years but a covenant confirmed DURING THE LAST 7 years. 

The temple and city in Daniel 9:26 are prophesied to be destroyed - after the messiah is cutoff.

So the restoration of the sanctuary is not by the messiah.   

 

 

[douggg]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t think you understood what I was offering earlier, which is why I mentioned we should not continue. 

When you conditioned no sourcing from the NT, that is what I understood.     But it seems you wanted sourcing from the NT in a first century setting.

The posting by you about Ribera claimed to have begun the futurist view - is irrelevant.  

I did not say anything about the Antichrist in regards to the discussion of Daniel 9, because that would be NT sourcing.

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I agreed to a non-sourcing of the NT, because I know that the time of the end little horn person will be the prince who shall come.    And the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is referring to the Mt. Sinai covenant.

But you cannot discuss a non-sourcing of the NT for Daniel 9 because it conflicts with your interpretations of Daniel 9.

 

 

[douggg]

26 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Above, you claim the Jew WOULD HAVE understood the “Prince to come” would be the anti-Christ.” Really?

No, I wrote that the Jew at the time of Daniel would NOT have realized the Prince who shall come is the NT Antichrist.

Here is what I wrote...

"The Jew would not have realized that the prince who shall come is the NT Antichrist."

Edited January 11, 2024 by douggg

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The temple and city in Daniel 9:26 are prophesied to be destroyed - after the messiah is cutoff.

So the restoration of the sanctuary is not by the messiah.   

 

 

I agree. But the cross, His rejection by His people would be the cause of its destruction. The mission of the Temple, the he Sanctuary and the first 4 Feast days have all been fulfilled. After the cross, they are meaningless.