Daniel's 70 Weeks - WITHOUT ANY NT SOURCING

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

When you conditioned no sourcing from the NT, that is what I understood.     But it seems you wanted sourcing from the NT in a first century setting.

The posting by you about Ribera claimed to have begun the futurist view - is irrelevant.  

I did not say anything about the Antichrist in regards to the discussion of Daniel 9, because that would be NT sourcing.

------------------------------------

I agreed to a non-sourcing of the NT, because I know that the time of the end little horn person will be the prince who shall come.    And the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is referring to the Mt. Sinai covenant.

But you cannot discuss a non-sourcing of the NT for Daniel 9 because it conflicts with your interpretations of Daniel 9.

 

 

Again, you are not understanding the “approach” to this exercise. 
 

When I first attempted to begin this you immediately jumped to 9:27 instead of 9:23 or 9:24. 
 

If we were sitting in the year 10AD, we would be awaiting the coming Messiah. We would have access to ONLY the Tanakh. But for this exercise, we will just focus on Daniel and the prophecies within it.

We can begin with the big picture first BEFORE we drill down to the details provided within each chapter that you want to begin with.

As I tried earlier, the most important purpose of Daniel is to capture the restoration of all things after their destruction by the Babylonians. THIS IS THE BASIS FOR DANIEL, and everything revolves around this concept. It is NOT an end time prophetic book, but a prophetic book about the restoration of Jerusalem, His people, and the coming Messiah.

It does speak in very broad terms about the end of days, but almost all of Daniel is focused on the first coming of the Messiah.

If you are not willing to begin this exercise with that view, everything will be continued to be interpreted as your current position- all end time events. 
 
Let me know if you thing you can do this… again, it is very difficult to do since everyone already has constructed and accepted the “futurist” theory authored by the RCC in the 16th century.

Let me know what chapter you thing “sets the framework” for interpreting Daniel- chapter 2 or 7.
 

 

 

[douggg]

41 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree. But the cross, His rejection by His people would be the cause of its destruction. The mission of the Temple, the he Sanctuary and the first 4 Feast days have all been fulfilled. After the cross, they are meaningless.

Charlie, reading from Daniel 9 without any sourcing from the NT, where are you getting from the text "rejection of the Messiah" ?

Also, reading from the text, where are you getting a cross being referenced ?

All the text says is that the messiah will be cutoff, but not for himself.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[douggg]

50 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Let me know what chapter you thing “sets the framework” for interpreting Daniel- chapter 2 or 7.

Charlie, chapter 8 sets the framework, because Daniel in chapter 9, referred to the first time he saw Gabriel in chapter 8, regarding the time of the end vision  involving the little horn.

The little horn of Daniel 8 will be the prince who shall come in Daniel 9, who will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years by having the law read to the nation of Israel, as Moses directed of all future leaders of Israel in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Edited January 11, 2024 by douggg

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, douggg said:

My first post in this thread was in response to your opening post which you brought up the Romans.

 

Thanks Doug! I will not be able to respond to your replies until later on..

However, I would ask you to comment on the purpose for the book of Daniel as a “starting point” for the review. 
 1) Primary purpose- restoration of all things after Babylon, 

2) And within the primary purpose is the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah- these are messianic prophecies of His first coming and not end time events (although I do understand you believe most are end time prophecies but we can take each verse individually and discuss the basis for either end time prophecy or first coming of the Messiah. Thanks. 

[douggg]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks Doug! I will not be able to respond to your replies until later on..

However, I would ask you to comment on the purpose for the book of Daniel as a “starting point” for the review. 
 1) Primary purpose- restoration of all things after Babylon, 

2) And within the primary purpose is the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah- these are messianic prophecies of His first coming and not end time events (although I do understand you believe most are end time prophecies but we can take each verse individually and discuss the basis for either end time prophecy or first coming of the Messiah. Thanks. 

Charlie, you are confusing me of what you mean - because you are not giving textual reference.

"restoration of all things after Babylon," what text are you referring to that has in "restoration of all things" ?    

And what text are you finding "the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant" in the form of the messiah or otherwise ?

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

Charlie, chapter 8 sets the framework, because Daniel in chapter 9, referred to the first time he saw Gabriel in chapter 8, regarding the time of the end vision  involving the little horn.

The little horn of Daniel 8 will be the prince who shall come in Daniel 9, who will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years by having the law read to the nation of Israel, as Moses directed of all future leaders of Israel in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Ok, I believe you may have mentioned that before, but do you have any objections to start at chapter 2? Big picture unless there is an obvious difference and then move forward...

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

Charlie, you are confusing me of what you mean - because you are not giving textual reference.

"restoration of all things after Babylon," what text are you referring to that has in "restoration of all things" ?    

And what text are you finding "the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant" in the form of the messiah or otherwise ?

 

 

Remember I mentioned the two items that the book of Daniel is focusing on - I mentioned that in the earlier post... If those two items are not in agreement, there is absolutely no reason to continue. 

Consider: The Jews were constantly disobeying their God and worthshippin idols. God gave them a million chances to repent and turn back to Him. The last prophet to try and warn them was Jeremiah. He specifically told them to repent or they would be taken by the Babylonians for 70 years. This is the start of their journey - first to be sent away to Babylon, and God is going to reveal all the events that will take place to restore His people. This is found in the 70 weeks of prophecy in chapter 9 - and it also reveals or prophecies the coming of the Messiah, the cross and the destruction of the Temple. 

This is the primary purpose of Daniel - to restore His people back to His city and the Temple and await to receive Him in the last week of the 70 weeks. However, God certainly knew they would reject Him and this was His plan all along - so the Gentiles will be saved.

So, please take a look at this and see if you agree. If not, please offer your comments - JUST ON THE ABOVE BIG PICTURE VIEW...

 

Thanks, Charlie

 

 

[douggg]

10 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Remember I mentioned the two items that the book of Daniel is focusing on - I mentioned that in the earlier post... If those two items are not in agreement, there is absolutely no reason to continue. 

Consider: The Jews were constantly disobeying their God and worthshippin idols. God gave them a million chances to repent and turn back to Him. The last prophet to try and warn them was Jeremiah. He specifically told them to repent or they would be taken by the Babylonians for 70 years. This is the start of their journey - first to be sent away to Babylon, and God is going to reveal all the events that will take place to restore His people. This is found in the 70 weeks of prophecy in chapter 9 - and it also reveals or prophecies the coming of the Messiah, the cross and the destruction of the Temple. 

This is the primary purpose of Daniel - to restore His people back to His city and the Temple and await to receive Him in the last week of the 70 weeks. However, God certainly knew they would reject Him and this was His plan all along - so the Gentiles will be saved.

So, please take a look at this and see if you agree. If not, please offer your comments - JUST ON THE ABOVE BIG PICTURE VIEW...

 

Thanks, Charlie

Charlie, I know that you mentioned those two things.    But what I asking you for is the textual reference that states "the restoration of all things" and the textual reference that states ""the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant"  ?

If I said "confirmation of the covenant for 7 years" , I would reference Daniel 9:27, for example.

[douggg]

29 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok, I believe you may have mentioned that before, but do you have any objections to start at chapter 2? Big picture unless there is an obvious difference and then move forward...

We were talking about how the content of Daniel 9 would have been understood by a Jew, without any sourcing from the NT.

But if you want to tie Daniel 2 to Daniel 9, as to how a Jew would have understood Daniel 9 without any sourcing from the NT, go ahead.

Nebuchadnezzar was the king at the time of Daniel 9 was written by Daniel.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by douggg

[Charlie744]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

Charlie, I know that you mentioned those two things.    But what I asking you for is the textual reference that states "the restoration of all things" and the textual reference that states ""the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant"  ?

If I said "confirmation of the covenant for 7 years" , I would reference Daniel 9:27, for example.

I do understand you believe that but, again, it is necessary for you to answer my initial inquiry that the book of Daniel is all about the restoration of the Jews, the city, the Temple, etc., with the most significant event in man’s history- prophecy of the coming Messiah in the last week of the 70 years prophecy. 
 

And the 9:27 prophecy is NOT A 7 year covenant sent some 2000 years in the future- makes absolutely no sense and does not agree with any of the verses (9:25-27) that speaks entirely to this restoration. In 9:27, “he” can be no other than the One coming after the 7 and 62 weeks are complete. This covenant (existing covenant) will be made stronger, better by the cross and He, not “he” (whoever one inserts a name here) is the Messiah- this was His God given mission (9:24) AND He will fulfill and complete His mission DURING the last 7 years of the prophecy. 
 

But the above was mentioned once again because you jumped to 9:27 rather than:

1) first please respond to my comment on the purpose of the book of Daniel and it speaks of God’s plan of restoration and salvation for the returning Jews from Babylon, and in the larger context, His plan for the salvation of the Gentiles. It is ALL about getting MANKIND back to the Garden to be with Him. He is not writing about Satan or some mythical anti-Christ figure some 2000 years in the future. No where in the entire Scripture does God include such discussion, prophecies, or interactions with mankind. 
It was the little horn (papacy) who attributed these most important messianic prophecies to an unscriptural anti-Christ figure that will NOT be ever allowed to physically deal with man. These speak about the Messiah!