Thoughts on Forgiveness

[Starise]

As most know, Christians are to forgive others. Forgiveness is an act of the will that determines itself to forgive. Often there are no signs of the perpetrator ever having any remorse, yet we are still to forgive them. 

We are told to forgive and love even our enemies. The bible tells us to forgive a brother 70 times 7.

What sorts of situations are we not required to forgive? Jesus didn't forgive Satan or the angels. Is this some kind of a precedent?

I have at times forgiven others but in my heart it still doesn't feel as if I forgave them. God knows I have every intent to forgive and I believe I did, but the wreckage left behind is too great to ignore and maybe that's what I see, especially when events can reoccur again opening up those wounds.

To protect ourselves I think we need some distance and if that isn't possible, we need ways to cope with it.

Some things don't require forgiveness, they require correction since it isn't a slight, it's really an inaccuracy. We are not to apologize for correcting biblical inaccuracy, even if we are made to feel we should seek it. God didn't make me a "corrector" but He did tell me to point out error if it can potentially mislead others and/or cause confusion. Some people will prefer error over truth and for those people there isn't much anyone but God can do since they have decided to believe in lies. I'll use an example- A church who votes to accept a gay pastor and those who dissent are made to feel as if they were being "unspiritual" so they need to ask forgiveness.

[RdJ]

Ah yes. If someone is sorry the relationship is good again, but if someone is not sorry at all and keeps doing the same thing I forgive because I have to and I don't want them to go to hell, but that's it. I'm not gonna spend hours in prayer for a sociopath. I went to a church once and that pastor was a cheater and had had a girlfriend for ages. Eventually he divorced and they kicked him out, but then there was no pastor. Only elders who were used for years to be led by him. So there was a creep who bothered me and others. I warned that elder. He said: you have to be forgiving blabla. Okay bye. I immediately left that church. If they don't kick wolves out good luck. I am not going there. It's safer to go to the disco.

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, Renskedejonge said:

Ah yes. If someone is sorry the relationship is good again, but if someone is not sorry at all and keeps doing the same thing I forgive because I have to and I don't want them to go to hell, but that's it. I'm not gonna spend hours in prayer for a sociopath. I went to a church once and that pastor was a cheater and had had a girlfriend for ages. Eventually he divorced and they kicked him out, but then there was no pastor. Only elders who were used for years to be led by him. So there was a creep who bothered me and others. I warned that elder. He said: you have to be forgiving blabla. Okay bye. I immediately left that church. If they don't kick wolves out good luck. I am not going there. It's safer to go to the disco.

Things have not gone well for you or that church have they? Really a sad thing when these are the people others look up to for spiritual leadership.

If there are known wolves being protected, it's no place to be. 

[FJK]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I have at times forgiven others but in my heart it still doesn't feel as if I forgave them.

As long as you hold any grudge, or resentment, or ill will for another that you perceive has done you wrong, you have not forgiven him.

I could talk a great deal about this from a Christian or secular perspective since I am not a naturally forgiving man and have has to struggle with this my entire life.

But putting religious and other dutiful reasons for forgiveness aside and looking at what it forgiveness does to you from a practical standpoint, have you considered what carrying a grudge against another with you does to your life?  I have never seen a man who is full of hate and anger and resentments against others who has led a happy, fulfilled or satisfying life, have you?

Jesus taught that we are not defiled by what the world brings to us, but what we bring into the world out of our heart, and I've found the sin of unforgiveness is one of the most self defiling and subtle things we have to deal with.  It seems that the ego always jumps to the forefront and defend it as justified so we can continue in it, but the truth is that we will never be free of the control of others -those we resent and bear grudges against- because of our unforgiveness unless we truly forgive so we can move toward God and Christ as we go forward from there.

A great deal more can be said about this, but I find that forgiveness ends being something we do for ourselves as much or more more than for the person we are forgiving, it sets us free from the bondage of the grudges and hatreds we bear.

 

 

[Who me]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Often there are no signs of the perpetrator ever having any remorse, yet we are still to foregive them. 

Are we!

Jesus does not forgive those who do not repent, and he does not expect us to do so either.

Luke17:3 shows that repentance is a vital part of forgiveness.

The parabel of the unjust servant shows we who have been forgiven, on our repentance, must forgive those who repent of offending against us.

As you rightly say we are to pray for and to do good to those who offend against us.

That praying involves us opening up to God about how they have hurt us, about our feelings and to ask that God deals with us and our hurt feelings as well as for God to deal with the offender.

[ladypeartree]

Forgiveness is easy forgetfulness is much harder. We are to forgive BUT there are also consequences we are not told to ignore. If a child does something wrong ( eg breaks a neighbours window ) we as parents forgive that child once they have admitted the wrong doing BUT the consequences are still there be it to apologise or to earn enough money doing chores to pay for the damage 

If someone does wrong we can forgive them but still not want anything to do with them unless they change their ways It doesnt mean we are holding a grudge just that we will not condone by acceptance that which is wrong

[Starise]

21 minutes ago, FJK said:

As long as you hold any grudge, or resentment, or ill will for another that you perceive has done you wrong, you have not forgiven him.

I could talk a great deal about this from a Christian or secular perspective since I am not a naturally forgiving man and have has to struggle with this my entire life.

But putting religious and other dutiful reasons for forgiveness aside and looking at what it forgiveness does to you from a practical standpoint, have you considered what carrying a grudge against another with you does to your life?  I have never seen a man who is full of hate and anger and resentments against others who has led a happy, fulfilled or satisfying life, have you?

Well , these are the kinds of things I have grappled with that begin as resentment and then fester. I try to let it go, but it doesn't just magically disappear, so the best I can do is to say, " Lord review everything in my heart to see what should not be there, and some of this was uncovered. I KNOW it hinders prayer and our relationship with the Lord, so I have made it a point to bring it to him for release. I WANT to forgive and I have said in my heart I forgive them, but the other stuff is still hanging on. Really nothing has changed except how I view things. I would not hate them or be intentionally rude, but I can't say I especially like them very much either, and I wouldn't make it a point to hang with them. Make sense?

30 minutes ago, Who me said:

Are we!

Jesus does not forgive those who do not repent, and he does not expect us to do so either.

Luke17:3 shows that repentance is a vital part of forgiveness.

The parabel of the unjust servant shows we who have been forgiven, on our repentance, must forgive those who repent of offending against us.

As you rightly say we are to pray for and to do good to those who offend against us.

That praying involves us opening up to God about how they have hurt us, about our feelings and to ask that God deals with us and our hurt feelings as well as for God to deal with the offender.

I was kinda waiting for a nibble on this, so I'm glad you brought it up because I do believe there are exceptions. 

So you don't think we should  forgive someone who is unrepentant? I tend to agree with that if it concerns something biblical.If foregivness is seen as an acceptance of the behavior. Even so I would do my best to harbor no ill will towards them. We can't condone or approve.

30 minutes ago, ladypeartree said:

Forgiveness is easy forgetfulness is much harder. We are to forgive BUT there are also consequences we are not told to ignore. If a child does something wrong ( eg breaks a neighbours window ) we as parents forgive that child once they have admitted the wrong doing BUT the consequences are still there be it to apologise or to earn enough money doing chores to pay for the damage 

If someone does wrong we can forgive them but still not want anything to do with them unless they change their ways It doesnt mean we are holding a grudge just that we will not condone by acceptance that which is wrong

This is I think, a very good way to look at this. Forgive them but not the sin.

[Neighbor]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

Often there are no signs of the perpetrator ever having any remorse, yet we are still to foregive them. 

Hi,

Hmm, not necessarily a unilateral forgiveness without recourse or method. Forgiveness does have a strict methodology not unlike that  shown  the chosen people of God under the Law of Moses covenant, that is to be obeyed.

The passages at Matthew 18  referencing the lost sheep, Mathew 11 through 35,  instructed His disciples, and reminded Peter (and by extension each  of us)  of the grace of God, His mercy toward us individually, and the responsibility that is also our privilege to forgive as witnesses giving testimony  of our Lord Yeshua by our own forgiving of slights against us.

He, Yeshua, having died in order to be a willing sacrifice  for our trespasses became our model for our mindset. Yet did his willing sacrifice forgive all? Is forgiveness of sin against God universal without  response of repentance from that sin? Does the sinner have need to ask  for forgiveness, and also to repent of it?  Might the sinner fall back, "backslide" and have need of further forgiveness and his own repentance? Can he in effect crucify  our Lord again?

Anyway, the steps given in the forgiving of sin against a brother (Sister too) is specific. It may be repeated endlessly,  but it is specific. It does not, as I see it, make one a doormat at all!  It gives specific  and logical means to demand a sin against one stop.

It gives means to bring it before the whole body  the local body of Christ. It gives instruction and means for casting out any member including any leader. It provides for the disqualifying of leaders from ever leading again too.

I also suggest that those  deciding to gather without rule, without leadership, are not in  a good sound Bible believing and practicing Church body. For they as a body will have torn out  and disregarded a major portion of the Bible, both OT and NT.

If a local body does not engage in church discipline, as laid out at Matthew 18, that alone would be warning enough to stay clear of it. If anyone comes into having wisdom of Matthew 18 and yet continues to sit under leadership of  overseers ( be it pastors, elders, deacons, or deaconesses) that do not adhere to it, they of course may suffer the severe weakness of that local church body. For that whole body will have opened their doors to belial.

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, Who me said:

Are we!

Jesus does not forgive those who do not repent, and he does not expect us to do so either.

Luke17:3 shows that repentance is a vital part of forgiveness.

The parabel of the unjust servant shows we who have been forgiven, on our repentance, must forgive those who repent of offending against us.

As you rightly say we are to pray for and to do good to those who offend against us.

That praying involves us opening up to God about how they have hurt us, about our feelings and to ask that God deals with us and our hurt feelings as well as for God to deal with the offender.

It depends. There's also a text for the apostles.

John 20

²³ If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

But I'm no apostle and I know no pharisees who sinned against the Spirit, so I just forgive everyone and if I can't I just say: I chose to forgive so and so but You do it.

Pray for those who mistreat you.

But I saw Jewish women who forgave Mengele. That really baffled me. He's already in hell. Maybe it was better for themselves.

[Neighbor]

53 minutes ago, Starise said:

I would do my best to harbor no ill will towards them.

Seems a wise policy to keep employing; 

A righteous man who falters before the wicked
Is like a murky spring and a polluted well.