What About The Palestinians ?

[Starise]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Israel is mostly totally unbelievers. The state today is Israel in name only. The constant insinuations they represent God in their murderous terrorism are what makes it worse. The comparison by some to the old testament, and how God used to lead the nation.

That's how it looks to me from the outside looking in.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Yes a nation there will be invaded and suffer and be surrounded by armies etc. That is not a GOOD role!! Only when most are dead and they finally get saved will that remnant play the good role once again. Right now the trait the bible mentions of Jerusalem is how spiritually it is also called Sodom.

No that definitely isn't a good role. Sodom? 

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

I have not seen anyone give bible support that God already restored them and is protecting them etc. That is later. They are there on their own now. They have zero right to land there now.

 I am still sizing a lot of this up. It doesn't look to me as if the "them" is really current Israel in the biblical sense, "if" that means the people currently in it in the biblical blessed sense. I could be wrong. Who are the they? If they are mostly all unbelievers how could it be the same group unless they all repented ?

It seems there could be some mismatched associations. The land itself would be another thing, as I believe God apportioned land to them for a nation. You see this otherwise apparently. There is a biblical "nation" of Israel in the bible.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Whatever status the WORLD bestows on a nation doesn't matter. That nation will not survive to inherit that land. A new nation will be formed from saved people there in the end when those alive repent and accept Jesus. Then they will be Israel, then God will destroy their enemies and make the desert bloom, and bring them from all over etc. Not before.

Well that might be the thing here in that some see Israel as a nation/people while others see Israel in a more spiritual sense which includes all who believe. This is what can complicate, confuse the issue.

I say let the bible answer that. 

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

I see real Israel people who accepted Jesus as His people. I see Israel again becoming a nation in a day in the end. When they are saved! Becoming His people and He will be (again) their God. The secular unbelieving nation today will be removed by God effectively. Only a remnant will all be saved. All Israel will be saved one day (though most of them will have already died before that)

Interesting way to see it. They surely are not there or even close at this point.

 

 

 

 

[other one]

5 hours ago, Slibhin said:

So aside from purposely avoiding questions that shatter your worldview, you also like to strawman. I didn't hamas is a nation, they are a terrorist group. Palestine is the nation.

You keep replying to my responses on Hamas as being made against all Palestinians, so in reality you are saying that, though not directly.  And that's why discussing with you is a waste of time.

[other one]

6 hours ago, Starise said:

I'm not convinced they had a choice.

I doubt I could convince you.

[dad2]

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That's how it looks to me from the outside looking in.

Actually the stats are known. The majority do not believe in God.

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No that definitely isn't a good role. Sodom? 

Yes God calls it that now

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8

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 I am still sizing a lot of this up. It doesn't look to me as if the "them" is really current Israel in the biblical sense, "if" that means the people currently in it in the biblical blessed sense. I could be wrong. Who are the they? If they are mostly all unbelievers how could it be the same group unless they all repented ?

Those born Jewish who receive Jesus in the end and are saved will be Israel. The one today would better be called Sodom

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It seems there could be some mismatched associations. The land itself would be another thing, as I believe God apportioned land to them for a nation. You see this otherwise apparently. There is a biblical "nation" of Israel in the bible

The nation ended when they rejected Jesus. They were scattered. The nation will be restored when it receives Jesus in the end. Only then will He give them the land. It is conditional.

 

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Well that might be the thing here in that some see Israel as a nation/people while others see Israel in a more spiritual sense which includes all who believe. This is what can complicate, confuse the issue.

I say let the bible answer that. 

Interesting way to see it. They surely are not there or even close at this point.

Israel is people. If we want to call all saved people Israel, then we would specify that it is the children of Abraham and Jacob that will be saved in the end and be called Israel and receive the promised land.

[backontrack]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:33 AM, Starise said:

Not much discussion here on them or if there is, they are all seen as an enemy.

What are your thoughts on those innocent caught in this war and forced to relocate? Is the feeling "oh well"?

Do you see them all as the enemy? 

Personally I can't see it that way.

What would you be if you were brainwashed from birth to hate the Jewish people,

myself probably would be like the Palestinians, oh by the way there is no such thing as a Palestinian according to the bible. 

It is a sad situation I might add but God did tell his people to wipe off people from the face of the earth. Back then it was ok, Let me make myself clear here, I am not saying this is right what's going on. 

God did say that in the last day there would be wars and rumors of wars.

Mat 24:6 

[Retrobyter]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

Considering the number of times I've seen us called the synagogue of Satan and how we're all going to be wiped out when Jesus comes back, I don't think concern for Jews is the motive.

Shalom, Slibhin.

Well, I for one have never called you the "synagogue of haSatan," even if you consider yourselves our "enemy." And, you are DEFINITELY NOT going to be wiped out when Yeeshuwa` returns! You ARE, however, going to "eat crow" for how you treated Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach 'Elohiym and His body of believers! They were tasked with showing you the truth of the Maashiyach, even when you've slapped their offered hands away! Now, Gentile believers to a large part have all but given up on the Jews!

If you take the time to study what is coming next, I think you will find it comforting. Here's the argument of Sha'uwl (surnamed "Paulos") to the Gentile Romans who believed in Yeeshuwa` being G-D'S Maashiyach, where he was describing that assignment:

(By the way, I use GREEN for narration of Scripture; RED for the words of a maashiyach - someone who has been anointed by G-D, such as a king, a prophet, or a priest; Royal PURPLE for the words of ADONAY G-D; and BLUE for the words of anyone else.)

Romans 11:1-33 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias (Eliyahuw or "Elijah")? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life!" (i Kings 19:10, 14)

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal." (1 Kings 19:18)

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written,

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day." (Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10)

9 And David saith,

"Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." (Psalm 69:22-23)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? God forbid!: but [rather] through their (temporary) fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, WHAT [SHALL] THE RECEIVING [OF THEM BE], BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD? (i.e., RESURRECTION!)

16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump (rest of the harvest) [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (an oleaster tree), wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches (the children of Israel, especially the Jews), [take heed] lest he also spare not thee! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:

on them which fell, severity;
but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off!

23 And they also, if they (the children of Israel, especially the Jews) abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFF THEM IN AGAIN. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is WILD by nature, and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree (King David's kingdom): how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL [BRANCHES], be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE? 

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' (Patriarchs') sakes!

29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance (i.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or calling). 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (the children of Israel, especially the Jews) also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY (i.e., the mercy of the Gentile believers), THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For GOD HATH CONCLUDED THEM ALL (JEW AND GENTILE) IN UNBELIEF, that HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

But, we've certainly NOT made it easy! OUR ancestors have been an EXTRAORDINARILY THICK-HEADED PEOPLE! The only reason I found out was that I thought I was a Gentile until I was older and learned from my maternal grandmother that her mother was a Jew! (Go figure.) So, I had the privilege to learn about the Messiah Yeeshuwa` ("the Christ Jesus") without all the biased prejudice against Him!

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

The IDF is on film committing war crimes including purposely killing civilians, desecrating graves and stealing food from an already starving population. They have also destroyed hospitals and schools, also war crimes. They don't make any effort, they just say they do to western media because they know people like you will believe it and repeat it without question.

I know the HISTORY of the Jews in Israel, and I know that it is their INTENT to reach out to those who are refugees from other countries, because they remembered that they, too, were once refugees. However, not everyone who is enlisted in the IDF have the best of intentions, nor do they always follow their superiors' orders.

On the other hand, Hamas is not an ordinary foe! They are well-entrenched, and, as you said, truly UNDERGROUND! If you've been shot at, and you don't know which of those "civilians" are really Hamas soldiers, what would you do?! Graveyards are NATURAL locations that may harbor an entrance to their underground tunnels! So are the basements of such structures as hospitals and schools, especially as they HIDE beneath the natural human shields that inhabit those structures!

GET THE WHOLE STORY BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS! Films are just another way that one could be lying to others about what is REALLY going on! Something to consider: Was it just films or was there COMMENTARY behind the films? That's a common trick that magicians use to misdirect your attention to something else so you MISS other things that are also happening!

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

I've already said I don't care if Hamas and other terrorists are turned into Swiss cheese. Jewish law, based on the Tanakh forbids killing civilians, it doesn't say to make a token effort. You see, the problem is hamas lives underground and it's nearly impossible to kill them without leveling the entire area. Even then it woun't be nearly 100%. They (hamas) also don't give a cats behind about their civilians and actually think dying for "the cause" is wonderful. The reaction Israel is giving is exactly what they wanted... because now Israel is a pariah and all the peace deals it was about to sign with it's neighbours is in serious doubt. Good work, Israel! Smart thinking.

I totally agree with Torah and the Tanakh. HOWEVER, Shlomoh in his Proverbs also warned us to be WISE and SHREWD in our dealings! And, you KNOW how Israel was deceived many times down through history because they didn't pay attention to what G-D said or because they didn't run a matter before Him first before making some decision! Many of the nation's defeats could have been avoided if they ASKED G-D FIRST!

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

Netanyahu is the reason Hamas exists in the first place, so none of us cares about his "promises" to wipe them out. Just ask an Israeli... oh wait you're already talking to one. He has been charged with serious corruption and he will almost certainly lose when he finally gets to court. He is deeply unpopular, responsible for the attack as much as hamas is and we want him out. He is trying to use the Oct 7 attack to cling to power to stave off the above corruption charges since his attempts to seize the judiciary failed.

EVERY MAN that is in office over Israel was put there with G-D's FULL KNOWLEDGE of how that man will play a part in HIS Plan for Israel! NO ONE is there without a reason. We must come to understand that G-D is at work behind the scenes, and HE DOESN'T SHARE ALL THAT HE'S DOING WITH THE LIKES OF US! This is what "faith" is! It's TRUSTING G-D to know what He's doing, even when things look dark! Tell me, what might have happened if someone else was in charge on Oct. 7?

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

I have also, if you go back and read my previous posts, the conditions in which Palestine exists and why. You guys choosing to hand wave it away and deny reality does not alter said reality, it just makes you complacent in genocide. Spelling Palestine/Palestinians in quotes also has no effect on their humanity or legitimacy, it just makes me think less of you to a large degree.

I don't give a care what you think of me. That's not important. But, you should KNOW that it was the ROMANS who gave the Land the Latin name of "Palestine!" And, that name came from the "P'lishtiym (פְּלִשְׁתִּים)!" Now, if the "Palistinians" want to OWN that name, then they need to know its origin!

Look, it's true that the Philistines were in the Land before the Israelis were, but
G-D TOLD THEM TO DRIVE THEM OUT BACK IN JOSHUA'S DAY! (Of course, Israel failed to do so right away, and that caused problems later on.)

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

Since none of you lives there and to my knowledge many haven't even visited, it baffles me that so many of you think you know Israel politics better than I do.

We get Israeli newspapers and media, and we CAN read, y'know! I've personally never made aliyah, yet, but I'd like to one day. My daughter has visited and stayed on IDF bases with friends, but I've not been so blessed, yet. I have friends that have made aliyah and they live there now! They keep me informed, as well. The world is not so big anymore. And, even an Israeli needs to be careful that they're not just listening to Hamas' propaganda!

On 2/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, Slibhin said:

Taking over a country and "re-educating" is also considered ethnic cleansing by the rules of war, the UN and the ICC. I don't think Palestine can even be made it's own country anymore which is why I want them integrated and given full citizenship. Obviously a lot of work has to be done to deprogram and undo the damage to its younger population. Killing their friends and family probably isn't a great start to earning trust.

While we have membership in the UN, we are not participants in the International Criminal Court. According the Wikipedia, "United States participation in the ICC treaty regime would also be unconstitutional because it would allow the trial of U.S. citizens for crimes committed on U.S. soil, which are otherwise entirely within the judicial power of the United States." We police our own.

Their children are going to be told different things by different organizations, represented by the different people to whom they are exposed. I fully believe that Israel does NOT mean them any more harm than they've already experienced. But, one must be realistic! War was declared, and we shouldn't expect anything more than that which war produces. KINDNESS to the survivors is important ON BOTH SIDES! One MUST be sure that the survivors are given the chance to better their lives from now on. However, one must also not be NAIVE! These Palestinian children must be taught the truth! Israel's G-D is NOT their enemy!

[Anne2]

19 hours ago, Slibhin said:

There is only one Torah and one Halakhah, it's not "their". G-d specifically ordered the destruction of the Canaanites, and the Torah doesn't say much about why other then they were wicked. The Torah says otherwise to strive for peace and not to kill the innocent. Try reading all of it.

It is their nation, their decision to make and their views on their scripture, their views as a nation concerning the wickedness Hamas has done, and said they will do it again and again. It is not our lives on the line, it is theirs. When it is your nation and your life on the line, then your opinions may matter.

 

[Anne2]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:27 PM, dad2 said:

Yes it is. The old testament was for believers. Israel today are unsaved and rebels. They may not claim that God is with them.

Unbelievers? In what sense?

Does the fact that they keep the covenant made with Abraham, despite the loss of life? Jew's in Nazi camps horribly abused still kept the Covenant made with Abraham their father. They circumcised their sons, and their sons also did the same despite the danger. That is not nothing, nor a lack of faith. They are partly blinded, but that is until the fullness of Gentiles has come in.

[Anne2]

Just now, Anne2 said:

Unbelievers? In what sense?

Does the fact that they keep the covenant made with Abraham apply? The law cannot disannul those promises. Despite the loss of life, Jew's in Nazi camps horribly abused still kept the Covenant made with Abraham their father. They circumcised their sons, and their sons also did the same despite the danger. That is not nothing, nor a lack of faith. They are partly blinded, but that is until the fullness of Gentiles has come in.

 

[Neighbor]

5 hours ago, Slibhin said:

The trope that Jesus is apparently going to come back and smite us all because I'm somehow responsible for his death 2000+ years ago is also tiresome. Aside from being totally contrary to messianic prophecy, even if everything about him was true G-d said we don't get punished for the sins of others.

Interesting takes. Seems to me that Yeshua stated no one takes his life. 

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.  But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.  The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.  I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.  As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” -Excerpt from  John