God's historic national rods of His wrath, discipline and purification of Israel and what that may portend.

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Correct about Gog and Magog. (I ironically corrected that in my book revision.) However, my point had to do with Islam. I believe that many Muslims may come to faith in Christ after God miraculously intercedes on the side of Israel. (That may be hopeful speculation on my part.) That battle also may be the catalyst the Antichrist uses to step in to broker a covenant between Israel and her surrounding neighbors.

To suggest that Israel was not destroyed in 70 A.D. is ridiculous. That flies in the face of Jesus's prophecy that not one stone of the temple would be left standing. History tells us that the fire was so hot that the gold melted and poured down between the cracks of the stones. The Roman soldiers literally turned over every stone of the temple to get to the gold.

Saying that Jerusalem was not destroyed because the section of the wall was left standing is like saying that the World Trade Center was not destroyed because a section of the metal pilings was left standing. If that is the apologetic for Islamic End-time Theory, neither does it have more than a few tattered pilings left standing.

Daniel did not mention the "name" Rome. However 

- given that Rome came on the heels of and conquered the third beast, Greece

-given that Rome was more terrifying, powerful, and larger than its predecessors

- given that Rome both nailed Jesus to the cross and destroyed Israel in 70 AD

Rome is the natural deduction.

Rome was not even the largest empire of its time.It was second best of its time.

[Jonathan Dane]

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Rome was not even the largest empire of its time.It was second best of its time.

Says who?

Here's a list of the world's largest empires. If you scroll down to the Timeline of the largest empires at the time, you see that Rome was the largest from 250 to 300 A.D. Prior to 250, only China was larger. We're talking about the Western and Middle Eastern biblical world that involved Daniel's people, THE JEWS, not the Far East. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires

Besides, I didn't say it was the largest or "the best," whatever the heck that means. LOL. I said it was "larger than its predecessors."

Edited April 6 by Jonathan Dane

[Shilohsfoal]

6 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Says who?

Here's a list of the world's largest empires. If you scroll down to the Timeline of the largest empires at the time, you see that Rome was the largest from 250 to 300 A.D. Prior to 250, only China was larger. We're talking about the Western and Middle Eastern biblical world that involved Daniel's people, THE JEWS, not the Far East. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires

Besides, I didn't say it was the largest or "the best," whatever the heck that means. LOL. I said it was "larger than its predecessors."

 

Says everyone who knows.Anyone who says Rome was the world power of its day has never heard of the Han dynasty.They are mostly ignorant of the world .

 

 

 

In terms of territorial extent and population, the Han Dynasty (China) was bigger than the Roman Empire. At its height in the second century AD, the Han Empire covered approximately 6.5 million square kilometers and had a population of around 60 million people.

[WilliamL]

On 4/4/2024 at 6:18 PM, Jonathan Dane said:

Can you show me where it says the Man of Sin is destroyed in the 1 Thess 4 rapture passage?

Indirectly. That passage takes place at the Parousia of Christ: verse 15. The Man of Sin is destroyed the Parousia of Christ: 2 Thes. 2:8.

These things therefore take place at the same time. As do the events of Matthew 24:3-31 (verses 3 and 27 say Parousia), and the resurrection of the dead of 1 Cor. 15 (verse 23).

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

Edited April 9 by WilliamL

[Jonathan Dane]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Indirectly. That passage takes place at the Parousia of Christ: verse 15. The Man of Sin is destroyed the Parousia of Christ: 2 Thes. 2:8.

These things therefore take place at the same time. As do the events of Matthew 24:3-31 (verses 3 and 27 say Parousia), and the resurrection of the dead of 1 Cor. 15 (verse 23).

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

LOL By quoting not only a separate passage but a separate book? Yep, indirect—I guess so.

[Shilohsfoal]

6 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

LOL By quoting not only a separate passage but a separate book? Yep, indirect—I guess so.

William is correct.The man of sin comes to his end when the resurrection takes place.Same time.

Daniel 11:45-12:2

And he shall pitch the tabernacle of his palace between the seas in the holy mountain of beauty: but he shall come to his portion, and there is none to deliver him.

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10 by Shilohsfoal

[Who me]

On 4/5/2024 at 8:02 AM, Jonathan Dane said:

"God's promises are all conditional."

Absolutely 100% false.

"the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void."
(Gal. 3:17)

Have you read the promises and curses outlined by Moses?

[Who me]

On 4/5/2024 at 10:25 AM, RdJ said:

Yes but not when He promises something. This was a choice: if you obey God will bless. Had they accepted Jesus He would have stayed.

What you have described is a conditional promise.

[Jonathan Dane]

15 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

William is correct.The man of sin comes to his end when the resurrection takes place.Same time.

Daniel 11:45-12:2

And he shall pitch the tabernacle of his palace between the seas in the holy mountain of beauty: but he shall come to his portion, and there is none to deliver him.

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

 

 

 

 

I never suggested he didn't. The issue had to do with the Rapture passage in 1 Thess. 4. There is no mention of the Antichrist whatsoever in that passage.

[Jonathan Dane]

10 hours ago, Who me said:

What you have described is a conditional promise.

"The law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void" (Galatians 3:17). 

The "promise" is not conditioned insofar as it can be made void. Jeremiah 31 states that God will remove Israel's heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. When that happens, Israel will be restored to their land along with all other promises made to them by God.

Edited April 11 by Jonathan Dane