God's historic national rods of His wrath, discipline and purification of Israel and what that may portend.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I see things somewhat similarly with you Jonathan Dane.

In Daniel 8:5-7,  we see the he goat with its notable horn who traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground (utilizing its air force) to annihilate Media and Persia (Iraq and Iran), during these end times (Daniel 8:17 & 19-20).

After conquering Media and Persia, the he goats notable horn secedes into four horns (national powers). So yes, things are going to change geopolitically, once Persia/Iran is annihilated by the he goats notable horn (military air force).

Luigi, doesn’t Alexander conquer the Persians, and when he is 33 years old he dies and his kingdom is split into 4 (to his 4 generals)? Doesn’t Gabriel tell us in 8:21 this kingdom is Greece?  Isn’t the “he goat” Alexander?

[luigi]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

Luigi, doesn’t Alexander conquer the Persians, and when he is 33 years old he dies and his kingdom is split into 4 (to his 4 generals)? Doesn’t Gabriel tell us in 8:21 this kingdom is Greece?  Isn’t the “he goat” Alexander?

Charlie744,

While Daniel 8:21, indicates the he-goats notable horn as the first king of Greece; when taken in conjunction that according to the angel in Daniel 8: 17 & 19, Greece is a kingdom that will traverse the whole world from the west without touching the ground to annihilate Media and Persia during the end times; we then realize Greece being a  metaphor for a kingdom from the across the globe that did not exist in Daniels time, but that would have similar characteristics to 6th century BC Greece, being the most notably technologically advanced nation for its time.

 

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

[luigi]

32 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Luigi, doesn’t Alexander conquer the Persians, and when he is 33 years old he dies and his kingdom is split into 4 (to his 4 generals)? Doesn’t Gabriel tell us in 8:21 this kingdom is Greece?  Isn’t the “he goat” Alexander?

Why did the Lord use the metaphors of a he goat for Greece, and a ram for Media and Persia, when He shortly thereafter identified these?--for nations during these end times.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, luigi said:

Charlie744,

While Daniel 8:21, indicates the he-goats notable horn as the first king of Greece; when taken in conjunction that according to the angel in Daniel 8: 17 & 19, Greece is a kingdom that will traverse the whole world from the west without touching the ground to annihilate Media and Persia during the end times; we then realize Greece being a  metaphor for a kingdom from the across the globe that did not exist in Daniels time, but that would have similar characteristics to 6th century BC Greece, being the most notably technologically advanced nation for its time.

 

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

I have never heard anyone interpret the 4 kingdoms as a metaphor. God purposely identified the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the earth or the sea (chapter 7). He established the 4 in chapter 2, and provided another set of symbols in chapter 7 (leopard with 4 wings for speed and the 4 heads to reflect his 4 generals). 
 

In chapter 8, God will use another set of symbols to reveal the activities found in His prophecies… and remember, these are taking place WITHIN the 70 weeks of years prophecy of chapter 9. But in chapter 8 God will identify the 3 major actors at the “king or power” level - no longer at the kingdom level. 
 

In chapter 8 there are 3 specific actors mentioned: the 2 “horns or powers” are Darius and Cyrus of the Medes- Persians. The next single horned animal is a one horned he-goat or Alexander, while the “little horn” is the coming “prince of the people who would destroy Israel in 70 AD (the papacy). 
 

God will also “tag” a very important meaning to each of these 3 actors: found in 8:4, 8:8 and 8:9. The 2 horned ram would be “great,” the 1 horned he-goat would be “very great,” and the last actor- the “little horn” would be “exceedingly great.”

None, imo, of the 4 beast kingdoms are metaphors but reflect the literal 4 kingdoms or powers from 606 BC to the end of time. 

[luigi]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I have never heard anyone interpret the 4 kingdoms as a metaphor. God purposely identified the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the earth or the sea (chapter 7). He established the 4 in chapter 2, and provided another set of symbols in chapter 7 (leopard with 4 wings for speed and the 4 heads to reflect his 4 generals). 
 

In chapter 8, God will use another set of symbols to reveal the activities found in His prophecies… and remember, these are taking place WITHIN the 70 weeks of years prophecy of chapter 9. But in chapter 8 God will identify the 3 major actors at the “king or power” level - no longer at the kingdom level. 
 

In chapter 8 there are 3 specific actors mentioned: the 2 “horns or powers” are Darius and Cyrus of the Medes- Persians. The next single horned animal is a one horned he-goat or Alexander, while the “little horn” is the coming “prince of the people who would destroy Israel in 70 AD (the papacy). 
 

God will also “tag” a very important meaning to each of these 3 actors: found in 8:4, 8:8 and 8:9. The 2 horned ram would be “great,” the 1 horned he-goat would be “very great,” and the last actor- the “little horn” would be “exceedingly great.”

None, imo, of the 4 beast kingdoms are metaphors but reflect the literal 4 kingdoms or powers from 606 BC to the end of time. 

If you acknowledge that the visions shown Daniel in chapter 8, are during these end times as indicated by Gabriel; all kingdoms and events and the little horn (the AoD), would then have to take place within a single generation. This is the same generation who will see all events described in the Olivet discourse before the end comes.

 

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, luigi said:

Why did the Lord use the metaphors of a he goat for Greece, and a ram for Media and Persia, when He shortly thereafter identified these?--for nations during these end times.

I do not understand why this would give you the basis to conclude any of the 4 kingdoms are metaphorical. 
 God DID specifically identify the first 3 kingdoms - literal kingdoms. Each of the chapters build of the other and confirm the kingdoms in the image. Even in verses 11:1-4 Daniel confirms the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms BEFORE he discusses the 4th kingdom and ALL the events that will take place from the time of the cross to the actions of the “little horn around 500 AD. Certainly, the true end times are mentioned in the last part of chapter 11 and chapter 12, but Daniel is largely speaking of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - when the Messiah will arrive at the beginning of the 70th week to fulfill His God given mission (9:24). 

Look forward to your thoughts on this. 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

If you acknowledge that the visions shown Daniel in chapter 8, are during these end times as indicated by Gabriel; all kingdoms and events and the little horn (the AoD), would then have to take place within a single generation. This is the same generation who will see all events described in the Olivet discourse before the end comes.

 

I don’t see why the Olivet discourse demands these events are “end times.” God has been quite specific in His use of symbols, timing and the literal events in Daniel. 
 

The book of Daniel was written FOR THE JEWS AND HIS CITY and the major theme is His plan of restoration for them AFTER the Babylonian destruction. He is revealing His plan of restoration beginning with THEIR CAPTIVITY in 606 BC, and “largely” ending in 33/34 AD, which is the last week of the prophecy. This is when Jesus is crucified. This “restoration” period is literal not metaphorical. 
 

 

[luigi]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I do not understand why this would give you the basis to conclude any of the 4 kingdoms are metaphorical. 
 God DID specifically identify the first 3 kingdoms - literal kingdoms. Each of the chapters build of the other and confirm the kingdoms in the image. Even in verses 11:1-4 Daniel confirms the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms BEFORE he discusses the 4th kingdom and ALL the events that will take place from the time of the cross to the actions of the “little horn around 500 AD. Certainly, the true end times are mentioned in the last part of chapter 11 and chapter 12, but Daniel is largely speaking of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - when the Messiah will arrive at the beginning of the 70th week to fulfill His God given mission (9:24). 

Look forward to your thoughts on this. 

 

 

I did not state the four seceded horns as being four metaphorical kingdoms.

If the little horn rises from one of the four seceded horns of the notable horn of the he goat, and this little horn (the AoD), is the same little horn who is the 10 horned fourth beasts mouth speaking of great things in Daniel 7; we then realize that until the he goats notable horn secedes into four horns of power; that the fourth beast is currently comprised having only 7 horns. These 7 horns of power today, I believe correspond with the 7 heads of the beast, but who when the notable horn secedes into four horns, will not be allowed an additional 3 heads at their table.

 

Edited April 4, 2024 by luigi

[luigi]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t see why the Olivet discourse demands these events are “end times.” God has been quite specific in His use of symbols, timing and the literal events in Daniel. 
 

The book of Daniel was written FOR THE JEWS AND HIS CITY and the major theme is His plan of restoration for them AFTER the Babylonian destruction. He is revealing His plan of restoration beginning with THEIR CAPTIVITY in 606 BC, and “largely” ending in 33/34 AD, which is the last week of the prophecy. This is when Jesus is crucified. This “restoration” period is literal not metaphorical. 
 

 

I believe the Word of God when He says that all the events in the Olivet discourse will transpire within a single generation, and that after which comes the end.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I will not argue with you.

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, luigi said:

If you acknowledge that the visions shown Daniel in chapter 8, are during these end times as indicated by Gabriel; all kingdoms and events and the little horn (the AoD), would then have to take place within a single generation. This is the same generation who will see all events described in the Olivet discourse before the end comes.

 

These events take place from 606 BC to approximately 500 AD (when the little horn comes to full power) - not in 1 generation. 
 

The first 3 kingdoms cover from 606 BC to the end of Greece (3rd kingdom) — assuming Greece began around 330, Alexander ruled for 13 years and then his 4 general ruled their territories for another 20 years brings us to around (300 BC) then the 4th kingdom of Imperial Rome began around 63BC. 
 

The 4th beast kingdom will continue from 63 BC to its demise in 467 AD, when “it will be slain and its body is destroyed,” (7:11).