Fall of Babylon Rev 18.11-13

[BlindSeeker]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It is amazing to look at prophetic scripture from our vantage point and generation (hindsight is 20/20). Before the blossoming of the fig leaves (May 14, 1948), no one knew how Israel would be reborn in a single day; most Christians believed it would someday. No one had any idea how Jerusalem and the mountains of Israel could be returned to Israel's control until the 1967 Six Days War.

Israel as a nation and Jerusalem, the holy city in particular, are God's prophetic time clock. I genuinely believe that on May 14, 1948, the sand clock was rotated, and the countdown of the end times began. We know the history of Britain and the Balfour Declaration, America and Truman's role, and the sun setting on Britain. The dead bones coming to life (WW II and the holocaust), etc., are fascinating!

No previous generation could have speculated on how Biblical prophecy could unfold except for the final terminal generation.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

It seems clear that the Ten Kings (or horns) precede Antichrist; these kings have something Antichrist wants and needs for global control. The majority view has been these kings are ten European nations, and they still very well could be. However, consider what has shaped up what is necessary for global dominance. Can ten European nations control the entire planet's commerce? What about China, Russia, N. Korea, and socialist communist countries?

Buying and selling (trade and commerce) is crucial to the Antichrist's domination. Now, dozens of so-called free trade agreements contain thousands of enforcement pages. In 1973, the Club of Rome divided the globe into ten economic trading blocks. Major oligarchies have been and are forming, centralizing everything from banking digital currency to media, with no privacy and spying on everyone.

Who could have imagined this before our generation?

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. (Zechariah 14:12)

What better description of a nuclear explosion? A flash of millions of degrees of heat will consume a body long before the blast wave arrives.

The destruction of Damascus overnight by the children of Israel, with the carnage of northern Israel, and the destruction of Elam seem to imply nuclear weapons (Isa. 17; Jer. 49, and elsewhere), along with across the isles (large bodies of water) delivery systems.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Matthew 24:34)

In the context of what Jesus predicted for the terminal generation, I'd say we are fast approaching the tribulation time.

Some may disagree, but I suspect the escalating Israeli War may be the catalyst for prophetic fulfillment in our lifetime.

Living in exciting prophetic times is an understatement.

When I get some more free time, I will show how commercial Babylon and the Whore are destroyed separately.

 

 I truly appreciate your insight and find considerable room for comfortable agreement with you. Honestly, no patronizing.

However, to be forthcoming, I personally do not subscribe to the popular notion of an end-time antichrist figure rising to near global dominance. While I have other reasons for not accepting it as truth, one simple reason would simply be the unanswerable question as to why the Apostle John didn't use the term he coined "antichristos" in Revelation. He it 5 times in his epistles relative to his own time, and in the plural about many antichrists coming, and clearly in the sense of it being a spirit of apostacy that would deny the humanity/deity of Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels...

At the risk of being called a Catholic hater again by one of our posters in this thread, I will simply share a brief excerpt from a chapter title “Giving Way to the Rise of The Son of Perdition”  concerning a popular historical perspective of 1 Thessalonian's "man of sin" -

1st Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The above verse is widely taught in Christendom today as referencing an end-time antichrist world leader figure. However, when researching old protestant commentaries, even the widely trusted Matthew Henry Commentary, it is hard to find one who fails to relate this “son of perdition” to the position of the papacy, or the succession of popes of Roman Catholicism. Some commentators, like the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary printed in 1871, recognize this verse as ultimately being fully realized in an individual “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.” However, they too affiliate this verse with the papacy position, but to the end conclusion that there would be one pope, the last pope in the latter days, which would with greater boldness oppose the Lord, His word, and Jesus the Christ openly. See below -

“Doubtless “the apostasy” of Romanism (the abstract) is one of the greatest instances of the working of the mystery of iniquity, and its blasphemous claims for the Pope are forerunners of the final concentration of blasphemy in the man of sin, who shall not merely, as the Pope, usurp God’s honor as vicegerent of God, but oppose God openly at last.”

Now, this little paragraph above, coupled with the following is perhaps one of the most important and yet least known details pertaining to the most popular teachings on eschatology. It deserves your careful noting, for what many believers nowadays are ignorant of is that this popular theology, which is being widely taught and accepted by non-Catholics, concerning the antichrist rebuilding the temple and becoming a world leader, was originally propagated and taught by a French Catholic monk known as Adso of Montier-en-Der who died in 992 A.D. Though he was a prolific writer of poems, hymns, and biographies of the lives of saints, his perhaps most famous work was his “Letter to Queen Gerberga on the Place and Time of Antichrist,” which became known as the “Little Book on the Antichrist.”

However, this theology which was so articulated over a thousand years ago by a Catholic monk, was rejected essentially by every protestant commentator who sought to defend the truth with their pen. For they acknowledged Paul’s speaking in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 of “a falling away first” as being the rise of Roman Catholicism, and “that man of sin… the son of perdition” as the succession of popes.

In the second century, Polycarp, deemed to be an apostolic father, in his Letter to the Philippians, paragraph 7, warned the Philippians that everyone who preached false doctrine was an antichrist.  Polycarp’s use of the term “antichrist” agrees with the Apostle John who does not reference a single antichrist, but rather a class of people functioning under a “spirit of antichrist.”

 I John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Note that this spirit of antichrist, which works to cause men to deny Jesus as the Christ, is said to be also denying both “the Father and the Son,” rendering those who would embrace the antichrist, or false-christ message, to be such that “has not the Father.” To counter this, John assures the saints that “he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” I find it interesting that the Holy Spirit isn’t referenced by John somehow within theses passages.

1st John 4:3 – And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come; and even now already is in the world.

1st John 7 – For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Nevertheless, this historical understanding of a spirit of antichrist that works to advance false prophets and teachers has for the most part been completely abandoned by non-Catholics today; most probably because most believers nowadays are ignorant of both scripture and history. Which means it would be prudent for the earnest seeker of the truth to ask what scriptural and historical justification these protestant commentators had for interpreting it the way they did. Perhaps, part of the answer has been obscured by Paul’s decision to not write about the subject plainly and openly in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians; but instead, chooses only to allude to it by directing his readers to “remember” that which he had taught them when he was there with them.

2nd Thessalonians 2:5 – Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Paul’s manner of writing here leaves me asking the question, “Why didn’t Paul just articulate these things again in more detail in his epistle?” With a matter of such significant importance, what could be his reason for not putting forth a clear and coherent teaching on this apostasy which the Holy Spirit had revealed to him was going to take place? Especially when Paul’s normal pattern in his epistles was to be very meticulous and thorough when presenting to the saints the oracles of God; yet here he goes no further than to write to them “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

It is evident Paul felt it was wisdom to trust the Holy Spirit to help them recall these pertinent things, for he continues with “you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.” Hence it seems evident that the Apostle Paul under the unction of the Holy Spirit was writing with great carefulness and was unwilling to formally document those things which he had obviously communicated to them in person."

[BlindSeeker]

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

All of this happened already, read the Book of Acts. 

A true Christian will find persecution everywhere....

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

 I truly appreciate your insight and find considerable room for comfortable agreement with you. Honestly, no patronizing.

However, to be forthcoming, I personally do not subscribe to the popular notion of an end-time antichrist figure rising to near global dominance. While I have other reasons for not accepting it as truth, one simple reason would simply be the unanswerable question as to why the Apostle John didn't use the term he coined "antichristos" in Revelation. He it 5 times in his epistles relative to his own time, and in the plural about many antichrists coming, and clearly in the sense of it being a spirit of apostacy that would deny the humanity/deity of Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels...

At the risk of being called a Catholic hater again by one of our posters in this thread, I will simply share a brief excerpt from a chapter title “Giving Way to the Rise of The Son of Perdition”  concerning a popular historical perspective of 1 Thessalonian's "man of sin" -

1st Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The above verse is widely taught in Christendom today as referencing an end-time antichrist world leader figure. However, when researching old protestant commentaries, even the widely trusted Matthew Henry Commentary, it is hard to find one who fails to relate this “son of perdition” to the position of the papacy, or the succession of popes of Roman Catholicism. Some commentators, like the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary printed in 1871, recognize this verse as ultimately being fully realized in an individual “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.” However, they too affiliate this verse with the papacy position, but to the end conclusion that there would be one pope, the last pope in the latter days, which would with greater boldness oppose the Lord, His word, and Jesus the Christ openly. See below -

“Doubtless “the apostasy” of Romanism (the abstract) is one of the greatest instances of the working of the mystery of iniquity, and its blasphemous claims for the Pope are forerunners of the final concentration of blasphemy in the man of sin, who shall not merely, as the Pope, usurp God’s honor as vicegerent of God, but oppose God openly at last.”

Now, this little paragraph above, coupled with the following is perhaps one of the most important and yet least known details pertaining to the most popular teachings on eschatology. It deserves your careful noting, for what many believers nowadays are ignorant of is that this popular theology, which is being widely taught and accepted by non-Catholics, concerning the antichrist rebuilding the temple and becoming a world leader, was originally propagated and taught by a French Catholic monk known as Adso of Montier-en-Der who died in 992 A.D. Though he was a prolific writer of poems, hymns, and biographies of the lives of saints, his perhaps most famous work was his “Letter to Queen Gerberga on the Place and Time of Antichrist,” which became known as the “Little Book on the Antichrist.”

However, this theology which was so articulated over a thousand years ago by a Catholic monk, was rejected essentially by every protestant commentator who sought to defend the truth with their pen. For they acknowledged Paul’s speaking in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 of “a falling away first” as being the rise of Roman Catholicism, and “that man of sin… the son of perdition” as the succession of popes.

In the second century, Polycarp, deemed to be an apostolic father, in his Letter to the Philippians, paragraph 7, warned the Philippians that everyone who preached false doctrine was an antichrist.  Polycarp’s use of the term “antichrist” agrees with the Apostle John who does not reference a single antichrist, but rather a class of people functioning under a “spirit of antichrist.”

 I John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Note that this spirit of antichrist, which works to cause men to deny Jesus as the Christ, is said to be also denying both “the Father and the Son,” rendering those who would embrace the antichrist, or false-christ message, to be such that “has not the Father.” To counter this, John assures the saints that “he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” I find it interesting that the Holy Spirit isn’t referenced by John somehow within theses passages.

1st John 4:3 – And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come; and even now already is in the world.

1st John 7 – For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Nevertheless, this historical understanding of a spirit of antichrist that works to advance false prophets and teachers has for the most part been completely abandoned by non-Catholics today; most probably because most believers nowadays are ignorant of both scripture and history. Which means it would be prudent for the earnest seeker of the truth to ask what scriptural and historical justification these protestant commentators had for interpreting it the way they did. Perhaps, part of the answer has been obscured by Paul’s decision to not write about the subject plainly and openly in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians; but instead, chooses only to allude to it by directing his readers to “remember” that which he had taught them when he was there with them.

2nd Thessalonians 2:5 – Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Paul’s manner of writing here leaves me asking the question, “Why didn’t Paul just articulate these things again in more detail in his epistle?” With a matter of such significant importance, what could be his reason for not putting forth a clear and coherent teaching on this apostasy which the Holy Spirit had revealed to him was going to take place? Especially when Paul’s normal pattern in his epistles was to be very meticulous and thorough when presenting to the saints the oracles of God; yet here he goes no further than to write to them “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

It is evident Paul felt it was wisdom to trust the Holy Spirit to help them recall these pertinent things, for he continues with “you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.” Hence it seems evident that the Apostle Paul under the unction of the Holy Spirit was writing with great carefulness and was unwilling to formally document those things which he had obviously communicated to them in person."

Everyone on here has their hermeneutical view. It took a while, but I have learned not to be dogmatic with my eschatological thoughts. At a minimum, I get another view of thought and how others think and interpret. It leads one to be a Berean and search those things in the Bible. The more time we spend in the Word, the better we are for it.

Many theologians, scholars, and great men of God (brothers and sisters in Christ) have studied Scripture all their lives. They ALL have differences in their exegesis. Who am I, a mere student of the Word, to argue my POV is the correct one? Biblical prophecy is best understood after fulfillment, i.e., May 14, 1948, 1967, etc.

Sometimes, it is disturbing when some armchair scholars here on WCF criticize another's eschatological thoughts, insisting their view is the only one and all others are unacceptable. Debate is great; iron sharpens iron, but what is ever gained with a closed mind?

[other one]

12 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I understand. There's not many people who believe a christian could be beaten in the synagogues in Israel.

They believe they will be beaten in the synagogues in the USA or China,but never Israel.Some feel that Israel is just to peaceful a people to persecute a follower of Christ.

 I don't know where you get this idea, for I don't know any real christian who doesn't understand that Israel concerning the Gospel is still in a fallen state. However as Romans says we owe them a debt of gratitude.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

36 minutes ago, other one said:

 I don't know where you get this idea, for I don't know any real christian who doesn't understand that Israel concerning the Gospel is still in a fallen state. However as Romans says we owe them a debt of gratitude.

 

It's in the gospel.

[BlindSeeker]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Everyone on here has their hermeneutical view. It took a while, but I have learned not to be dogmatic with my eschatological thoughts. At a minimum, I get another view of thought and how others think and interpret. It leads one to be a Berean and search those things in the Bible. The more time we spend in the Word, the better we are for it.

Amen, very well said.

I often view it as if we are all spokes on a rim connected to the axle, the polestar of all truth. From our various starting points we all begin with a different perspective, often blinded to the view of another, as they are to ours. Yet as life begins to rotate the wheel of life, the attentive will take notice of the change, new perspectives formed, and with time and maturity under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we all converge more into a harmony of heart and mind towards the Truth.

I believe it is this process, a form of sanctification and perfection of holiness, that causes us to put on Christ, and to come to the that measure and fulness of Him. 

Romans 13:14 - But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts [or pride] thereof.

Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.  14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind [or whim] of doctrine, by the sleight [or ignorance] of men, or  cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow up into Him in all things, which is our head, even Jesus Christ, 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted [or pressed into humility in order to receive from others] that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working [of the Spirit] in the measure of every part, thereby making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Many theologians, scholars, and great men of God (brothers and sisters in Christ) have studied Scripture all their lives. They ALL have differences in their exegesis. Who am I, a mere student of the Word, to argue my POV is the correct one? Biblical prophecy is best understood after fulfillment, i.e., May 14, 1948, 1967, etc.

Amen, and amen. Who are we and what have we that we have not received? If we figured it our, we will only be proven wrong in the in. No one wants to be a Harold Camping, twice wrong, in predicting the the start of the apocalypse and the date of the rapture. However, the arrogant will run ahead. Hence, knowledge puffs up and give vain confidence, but true understanding from the Lord brings humility.

 Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
 Proverbs 16:16 - How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Jesus said they were indeed blessed to whom "it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God." Even Daniel, a very humble man, was told by the angel, "I am come forth to give you both skill and understanding" of the things he had heard and saw.

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Sometimes, it is disturbing when some armchair scholars here on WCF criticize another's eschatological thoughts, insisting their view is the only one and all others are unacceptable. Debate is great; iron sharpens iron, but what is ever gained with a closed mind?

True. Some are like drive by shooters, never stopping to listen, only constantly shooting of the scripture gun, and that not to bring unity or understanding, but to defend the high ground from which they are destined to fall from...

We all have bibles and many read them, but reasoning and ministry must be intimate and personal, otherwise it is detrimental...

Galatians 6:1 - Wherefore brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

Edited April 15 by BlindSeeker

[Last Daze]

On 4/13/2024 at 9:42 PM, BlindSeeker said:

For the most part I agree. But in regard to prophetic significance for the last days, I see it as the religious mother of harlots which has sat upon all seven mountains and seen to be riding the beast (IMHO, the 8th and last prophetic great empire) in chapter 18. I feel that this union is prophetically significant of an unholy matrimony between the apostate religious system (whore) and the civil empire (beast).  I do not see them being separated in judgment or destruction.

The beast and his 10 horns destroy the harlot.

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.  Rev 17:16

Have you considered the dual nature of "Babylon"?  There are two Babylons that are destroyed in Rev 17 & 18.  One is the harlot, apostate Israel, which leads to the rise of the man of sin.  The other comes later at Christ's return and is Satan's kingdom.  One takes place in an hour when the 10 horns receive authority as kings.  The other takes place in a day, the day of the Lord, at His return.

 

[BlindSeeker]

25 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The beast and his 10 horns destroy the harlot.

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.  Rev 17:16

Have you considered the dual nature of "Babylon"?  There are two Babylons that are destroyed in Rev 17 & 18.  One is the harlot, apostate Israel, which leads to the rise of the man of sin.  The other comes later at Christ's return and is Satan's kingdom.  One takes place in an hour when the 10 horns receive authority as kings.  The other takes place in a day, the day of the Lord, at His return.

 

Feel free to expound and  further define your position. 
FYI, while I recognize the apostate of Israel and Judaism without Christ, I do not see her as this harlot in chapter 18.

[Shilohsfoal]

20 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Matthew 11:

9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet?

Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 

10 For this is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women

there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist;

but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now

the kingdom of heaven suffers violence,

and the violent take it by force. 

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Name one more?

Jesus.