Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19 is not the second coming

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

People that continually change their understanding of something never had a revelation by God or they would not be changing. That's what happens when we read books by other men or listen to men's ideas.

Please brother. I have read NO BOOKS but the Bible. Do you see other men that believe there are two raptures. Everything falls into place perfectly if you just accept what is written and understand what is written

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

They key is the people were acting normal until the floods came. 

The TIME of the Gentiles coming FULL is our SERVICE as the church on earth. The 70th week and the Rapture starts at the same time, the TRIGGER is Israel joining the European Union. 

I used to think the same until I realized that Noah spent the first day of the 7 loading animals

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As I stated, 1 Cor. 15 AND 1 Thess. 4 are both a pre 70th week pre trib. Rapture, as is Rev. 4:1.

I used to think the same until I understood that 1 thes 4 is the dead rising at the barley harvest and Christ returning for the alive that remain at the wheat harvest. 

1 Cor 15 is the harvest at the 6th seal..........seen here.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The harvest at Rev 14 occurs BEFORE the wrath of God. This is the 6th seal harvest prior to wrath.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

The Last Trump merely means it happens in the Fall, not during the 70th week per se. As a matter of fact it proves the Church Age ENDS before Israel ATONES (Feast #6) as Zech. 13:8-9 (1/3 repent) and Zech. 14:1 (DOTL Arrives) shows. The Trumps always ended the Harvest seasons, we are harvesting souls for Jesus as the Church for 2000 some odd years, all that changed at the LAST TRUMP. 

The Church is raptured before the tribulation..........after the 70th week has begun. After the Lord comes for the alive that remain at the end of summer wheat harvest what will Israel say?

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The twelve tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman will realize that they missed the harvest. They will become jealous and their blindness will be removed

Romans 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

The Wrath doesn't begin IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation, nowhere in Revelation 6 does it say that anyway, that is YOUR IDEA.

If the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur just before Jesus comes in Matthew 24 we can conclude that Jesus comes at the 6th seal because we get the same signs. Additionally, we have the kings of the earth trying to hide, and we have a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7, SOME OF WHICH came out of the great tribulation.

Revelation 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

 

Rev. 6 Prophesies what is soon to come, and God Wrath comes as the Trumpet Judgements hit (The Apophis Asteroid Impact). Why is it you can not grasp that God can foretells us what men in the future will be thinking and saying?

Revelation 6 is finished before the wrath of God comes. Here is the last verse of Rev 6

Rev 6

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

What you miss with Matt. 24:29 (and try to plunge it into Rev. 6) is that the Sun and Moon going dark IMMEDISTELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days is talking about at the MIDWAY POINT when the Asteroid hits !!

No. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes in the clouds for a harvest and the world is cast into the wrath of God. They will say peace and safety when the tribulation is cut short but will be cast into the wrath of Gd.

1 Thes 5

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

They will say peace and safety when the tribulation is cut short but will be cast into the wrath of God. We see the same thing in Revelation 14. Jesus comes for the harvest and world is cast into the wrath of God.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

So, in both instance, the DOTL arrives, and THEN......Jesus returns

Exactly. Immediately after the tribulation, Jesus returns for the harvest. This is the great multitude seen in Rev 7. Then the world is cast into the wrath God which begins at the 1st trumpet OR the vial. At the end of the wrath of God Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

, your problem is prophecy does not give us events as close together as you assume or think it should, God's way is correct, of course, we do not need 1260 days of word salad which adds nothing, we need t know the Wrath starts in the Middle of the week and you should know that, we all do,

No sir. Wrath does not start in the middle of the week. Tribulation starts in the middle of the week. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. When the first trumpet is blown wrath will last for 1-Year

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

BUT...........you do not grasp God is saying IMMEDUALY AFTER the Tribulation the Sun and Moon o dark, you JUMP to his second coming.

It is the second coming. Jesus comes in the clouds immediately AFTER the tribulation. He comes for the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. All eyes see this coming, but Jesus sends His angels for the harvest. This happens at the 6th seal. Then the 1-Year wrath begins when the 1st trumpet sounds. At the 7th trumpet, Jesus has already returned and the second advent has occurred. Armageddon is already over when the 7th trumpet of wrath sounds.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

But God just gave us a play by play, firstly, the Sun and Moon going dark which Joel spoke of happens IMMEDIATLY AFTER God Wrath

No. Wrath is not tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God will begin when the 1st trumpet sounds.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

 

 

hits the earth by wat of an Asteroid. THEN...........Jesus returns but we KNOW there is a 1260 day gap in  between these two events. You place vs. 29 as going with vs. 30, I don't because I understand there is a 1260 day gap. 

There is NOT a 1260 day gap. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God lasts for 1 year. The tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation is cut short or no flesh would receive salvation at the rapture at the 6th seal. The second rapture.......the fall fruit harvest. Hence the grapes being cast into the wrath of God.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

In Zech. 14:1-2 we see the DOTL arrives, Jerusalem gets sacked and THEN....1260 days later Jesus shows up in vs. 3. Yu see both verses have 1260 day jumps, both Matt. 24:29 and Zech. 14:2 JUMP 1260 days. If God had told us about every day in existence the bible would have 10,000 THIVCK VOLUMES !! No one would have even read it. The Bible is nice and concise, Amen. 

Jesus is foretelling FUTURE EVENTS. He is telling us how they will think when His wrath finally his in Rev. 8. That is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Jerusalem gets sacked before THE TRIBULATION. Tribulation is OVER before the 1 Year wrath of God begins.

The seventh seal is not over in Revelation 8. The seventh seal contains all 7 trumpets. The seventh seal is over in Revelation 11 and in another view it over in Revelation 16.

Edited May 13 by The Light

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Certainly the 12 tribes are raptured. They are the seed of the woman who the dragon goes after when he can't get to the Woman. It is the woman, that has fled to the place of protection.

Now, if you will follow my logical points here, you will see the Remnant CAN NOT be Jewish but can ONLY BE a Gentile Remnant. Those Gentiles who come to Christ after the pre 70th week rapture are a Remnant right? (small part of a whole).

Lets look at the passage, they are not the SEED of the Woman, they are the Woman. That SEED is Jesus sees Gal. 3:16 below, but first....... 

 

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood(A.C. Army) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth(Angry) with the woman(1/3 Israel who REPENT), and went to make war with the remnant(Small part) of her seed(Jesus is THAT SEED), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is self explanatory, if one simply thinks it through. Satan sent his Little Horn/Anti-Christ thug after the 1/3 who REPENT, but he can not get at them because God is protecting them via the elements of the earth just like in Egypt with the Fire Wall and the Red Sea parting. So, when vs. 17 says he gets ANGRY because he could not get at her he TURNS...........to go after the Remnant of HER SEED (which is Jesus as Gal. 3:16 says). Well, since he can not get at the 1/3, she can  not be THAT TARGET right?

Its just common sense. Now Zech. 13:8-9 says the 2/3 who refuse to repent will die. BUT.......2/3 can not be a Remnant AND the last part of vs. 17 says this "Remnant" has the Testimony of Jesus AND they keep the Commandments of God, well the 2/3 who refused to repent CAN NOT be that Remnant can  they? So, the remnant can not be the 1/3 Jews who repent nor the 2/3 who refuse to repent. So, it can ONLY BE the Remnant Gentile Church on earth AFTER the Rapture of the Church. This is why I see all of this, I question everything, no matter how many ties I point this out to a mid or post Rapture person they DODGE IT...........LOL. They know its true but it destroys they thesis.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Jesus is THAT ONE SEED. Thus the Remnant of THE SEED (Jesus) is the Church. So, you get the 12 tribes all wrong, they can't be the seed when its Jesus, they are the 12 tribes and the Seed of Abraham, the Woman's Seed is Jesus. Or you could say Abraham's seed = the 12 Tribes and the 12 Tribes Seed is Jesus. 

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Ok. And then the seed of the woman will have the blindness removed and they will see that Jesus is the Messiah. We are told not to be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Only 1/3 repent, not every Jew (Israelite) repents. Its not a De facto of blindness else al Jews would see, thus the removal is not as if God did this himself, I think we the church help do this by our Rapture, which is why we need to get it right, we do not FLY OFF to heaven, we are CHANGED (from flesh man unto a Spirit Man......read 1 Cor. 15:44 we are sown as flesh men and raised a spirit men). Thus no flesh and blood can enter heaven vs. 50 says, so those of us alive at that time, well we have to be CHANGED (which means we leave out flesh body behind............WE DIE..........and go to be with the Lord where we will get our glorious bodies as a reward.) 

These Jewish peoples fell threatened by the whole world, except by us modern Christians who have finally understood Israel's plan by God was an everlasting promise, prior to 1948 most felt the Church took Israel place, wrongly. They see our love for Israel, then when one billion of us die, all Christians, all at the same time, many understand this was the Rapture, the look at all of our online writings about the way things will be, written years ago and they see we laid out everything that was coming, and this LIFTS their Faith in Jesus, they finally SEE Jesus for who he is. Moses and Elijah are sent back at the 1335 to make sure the 1/3 have the correct information. BUT....they still have to accept Jesus by FAITH ALONE, that is what Paul meant in Gal. 3 when he said there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) male nor female, he was saying we all come unto God in the exact same manner, by FAITH ALONE. Read Romans 11 again, watch this:

Rom. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:(Meaning? God turned to the Gentiles because of the Jews UNBELIEF)

31 Even so have these(Jews) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, God had mercy on us via the Jews unbelief, but in the very end those same Jews who are still living in UNBELIEF will once again believe because of the Churches mercy, meaning we act out in our lives Christ Like Mercy via the Jews. We are the Light of the Word, Christian means Christ Like. These end time Jews will look at this hatful world, and see the light of Christ Jesus in us. They will then know we are of God. They will call on Jesus and repent, just before the Wrath of God falls via the 7 Trumps. We an see them fleeing in Rev. 7, the 144,000 is a CODE for the 1/3 or about 5 million Jews who repent.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Are you saying that there are no Jews in New York or any other city across the earth?

No, we know there are, but its going to get so bad (look around you know) that most will move there before this all kicks off soon. The POINT is there were never any LOST TRIBES that are now represented as other nations those who were TOTED OFF were forever forsaken by God, but SEED from each tribe REMANIED in Judea, they even built a new part to the City to hold all the Northern Kingdoms Refugees, so this notion that 10 tribes were missing is just bonkers, that never happened.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Ezekiel 4

1 Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem:

Of course you NEVER MADE ONE SINGLE POINT. We all know God judged Israel many times, that however does not (TOO FUNNY) take away God's END TIME Prophesies which says He will bring the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into their land. That kind of shell game never works on me brother. 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The 6th seal is the second coming. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus remains in the clouds as all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

The coming of Jesus at the 7th vial is when the 2 advent will occur. By the way we see the same coming at the 7th trumpet.

You clearly do not understand prophecy, the one plus you used to have was you were at least Pre Trib. however on everything else you were off via prophecy so I figured it was only a matter of time until you changed your stance on that also. The 6th Seal is Jesus taking a SEAL off the SCROLL, and its only unsealed in Revelation 8, because that is where God's Wrath started via an Asteroid Impact. When you get to heaven check in and wink at ole Rev. Man, I will know that is you doing a mea culpa.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Absolutely, positively NOT. 

The 6th seal is the second coming of Jesus IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation and before the wrath of God. This is the coming of Jesus we see in Matthew 24. It is also the coming of Jesus we see in Revelation 14. Jesus remains in the clouds and we all return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in Rev 7 with SOME coming out of Great Tribulation. 

The coming of Jesus at the 7th vial, the second advent is the same coming we see at the 7th trumpet. It is also the same coming we see in Revelation 19.

Most people think that the second coming and second advent are the same but they are not.

No, I shan't waste my time arguing a point that has no validity at all. You are really conflate and confused here, it just amazes me you guts can't look up what a Sealed Signet Ring did, it BOUND the message where it could not be read util all three Seals were Broken. Jesus being God has 7 Seals on it, meaning the Wrath can not come until Jesus UNBINDS the 7 Sealed Scroll. 

Study it, quit buying into stuff other aught you long ago. Its SEVEN SEALS on a SCROLL. The Judgment can not come util all 7 seals are taken off.

Who can't see the First 5 Seals foretell the Anti-Christ coming 42 month rule. They 6th Seal foretells God's 42 month Wrath. The Rev. 8 7th Seal ALLOWS the Wrath to come. That is why it is over in Rev. 8. You guys just look past every clue. The 2nd Coming (which is not his 2nd time on earth) is the 2nd Advent.

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

Please brother. I have read NO BOOKS but the Bible. Do you see other men that believe there are two raptures. Everything falls into place perfectly if you just accept what is written and understand what is written

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You can read or HEAR..........or find things on youtube. Only the Church gets Raptured to heave to marry the Lamb, NO ONE ELSE. Once you miss the wedding the Doors will be CLOSED. 

7 hours ago, The Light said:

I used to think the same until I realized that Noah spent the first day of the 7 loading animals

What I see is OVERTHINKING. 

7 hours ago, The Light said:

I used to think the same until I understood that 1 thes 4 is the dead rising at the barley harvest and Christ returning for the alive that remain at the wheat harvest. 

1 Cor 15 is the harvest at the 6th seal..........seen here.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

No, Rev. 14 is a FLASHBACK, who come you can understand a FLASHBACK in a movie but not in God's word? Rev. 14 is The Harvest chapter, so the wicked Grapes (Tares) have to grow with the Wheat (Israel) until the end, but the Barley is Harvested first in a pre 70th week/pre trib. rapture. Barley does not need to be CRUSHED like Wheat in order to be sifted. As a matter of fact the English word tribulation comes from a Greek machine used to crush the wheat, called the TRIBULUM. 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 are both the pre trib. rapture. To me this proves you are guessing way too much, someone with an enticing argument can sway your thinking. 

8 hours ago, The Light said:

If the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur just before Jesus comes in Matthew 24

IT DONT.............did you not read what I stated? there is a 1260 day JUMP between verse 29 and 30. I will stop here because it looks like you are replying without reading. I don't go that route. Which I think is why I quit replying to you before, everything comes out, but you do not read the replies in full so no genuine debate can be had.

[Indentured Servant]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

                         Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19 is not the second coming.

 

Jesus coming on the clouds in Matthew 24 is the second coming - and Revelation 19's Jesus coming on a white horse is something else.

 

I can hear most of you say "What?....has Joe Canada lost his marbles?"....... 

 

Christians have built their entire eschatological theory on the assumption that the two comings in Matt 24 and Rev 19 are the same event.

 

The pre-trib and post-trib rapture are both built on this assumption.

 

The Rev 19 Second Coming being the same event as Jesus' coming on the clouds in Matt 24 is probably one of the greatest assumptions in the bible.

 

As Scripture will show, these two events have nothing in common. Scripture will interpret Scripture by using shared words or shared events between two passages to show that the two things are the same. There are no shared words or symbols between the events in Matt 24 and Rev 19.

 

The second coming IS the FIRST time that Jesus returns in great glory and power - He can only do that ONE time. But..... He can return more than once. It's the difference between a return and a coming.

 

Okay.... let's look at some scriptures:

 

In Jesus's explanation of the end times in Matthew 24, after the great tribulation, our Lord descends from heaven coming on the clouds, with power and great glory....the shekinah glory of  God. 

 

In Revelation 19, at the end of Revelation, Jesus descends from heaven riding a white horse, accompanied by heavens armies. Where is the horse in Matt 24? There is no horse to be seen. In Matt 26 we read " Thereafter, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power and coming on the clouds of heaven. This shows Jesus initially comes seated on a throne, next to the invisible Father, and that everyone will see this. But..... NO horse. If Jesus left heaven on a horse, how did he end up on a throne.

 

In Rev 6:16.... "Hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb".... Again, Jesus is seated  on a throne when the whole world sees Him and the unrighteous ask to hide.

Another view: ...... "I looked and behold, a white cloud and sitting on the cloud was one like the Son of Man.... Rev 14:14

And another :...... "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne...... Matt 25:31

 

So..... where's the horse and the armies?

 

Did Jesus do some fancy cowboy moves and jump off His horse and land on His throne?

 

Not likely..... there is one coming - Jesus on a throne Matt 24..................... and another return - Jesus on a horse Rev 19. 

 

The Seal Trumpet and Bowl judgments have 21 events between them, each one having 7.... 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls.

 

The disciples asked Jesus in Matt 24:5-14 what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. Jesus then proceeded to mention six signs or events prior to His coming..... false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, tribulation, apostasy and preaching of the gospel to the whole world..... 

Yet, Jesus didn't mention even one of the judgments in the trumpet and bowls, which are unquestionably signs of incredible severity - burning of 1/3 of the earth population by fire and brimstone, stinging of unbelievers by demon locusts, etc.

 

There can only be one explanation why they aren't mentioned by Jesus. These judgments come after His glorious coming. To say otherwise is an enormous contradiction. 

 

Jesus equates the Wrath of God, which follows the great tribulation, with Noah's flood in the form of an analogy..... Matt 24:37-39

 

Jesus says that in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark and they were unaware until the flood came (wrath of God) and swept them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

Jesus tells us the unrighteous will be living normal lives right up to the coming of Jesus - eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and in Luke 17, Jesus adds buying and selling, planting and building - a full summation of normal living right up until the day of Jesus' coming.

 

Do you really think that normal living will be taking place during the Trumpet and Bowl judgments, when 1/3 of the earth is burned with fire and brimstone - demonic locusts stinging for 5 months and people wanting to die but can't - earthquakes levelling cities and mountains, moving islands - 100 pound hailstones crushing any and every thing - boils and sores on people - oceans and fresh water all poisoned?

 

Jesus' garments are stained in Rev 19 - they are dipped in blood before He mounts a white horse and leaves heaven. This happens, as Isaiah 63:1-4 describes, where He pours out His wrath on Edom, and stains His garments with the blood of the unrighteous, treading the winepress of God Almighty. This means that He was on the earth prior to Rev 19. Jesus says He treads this by himself, there was no-one with Him, yet in Rev 19 He comes with the armies from heaven. 

 

Jesus' primary purpose in Matthew 24 is the gathering of the saints - this is a main theme in the bible. Both the old and new testament speak of it. And yet in Rev 19, we find the main theme is Jesus returning with His armies to wipe out the antichrist and his hordes. There is no mention of any gathering of the saints.

 

The darkening of the sun moon and stars takes place after the 6th seal. This major event is not seen in Rev 19. What is seen at the 6th seal is the sun darkened, the moon is darkened to blood, the stars fall, the powers of the heavens are shaken as the sky is rolled like a scroll, a great and mighty earthquake, the tribes of  the earth mourn and hide in caves ------------------------------ THEN-------------------------- Jesus appears, breaks the blackest darkness by His Shekinah Glory, blazing in light, coming on the clouds, seated on a throne..... and then:

 

                            "And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet..... and they will gather                                              together His elect, from the four winds.... from one end of the sky to the other"

 

The Parousia is the coming of our Glorious Savior. It is the one and only Parousia. It is referred to this way 18 times in Scripture and yet, Rev  19 does not use this term.

 

One more point:

 

Satan, the beast and the false prophet know when Jesus is coming in Rev 19. In Rev 16:14-16 we see these three send out demonic spirits to gather the kings of the earth to fight Jesus in the battle of Armageddon. They know Jesus is returning for the final showdown... to fight him.

Yet.... in Math 24 we are told that no-one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' coming..... so Rev 19 can't be that coming. 

 

If the two events were the same.... Matt 24 and Rev 19.... there would be similar symbols.

But there is nothing about the two accounts that are  similar.

They are completely and utterly different. 

 

         Jesus tells us when He is coming back. He tells us in His own words in Matthew 24:29-31. Read it!

The "white horse" in Revelation is a  metaphor that builds on the passage in Matthew 24. It IS the same event. 

When He returns, it will be to establish His earthly Kingdom. The white horse is a kingly symbol. No, there will not be an actual horse, anymore than an actual dragon, or falling stars, or a prostitute. (He may choose to have a horse when He sets up His kingdom, but that is a different matter.)

Revelation is written in metaphoric, or symbolic, language. 

Have you read the OT passage that says that the clouds are God's chariot? That is a metaphor that blends the "clouds" in Matthew with the horse metaphor in Revelation.

 

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

When He returns, it will be to establish His earthly Kingdom. The white horse is a kingly symbol.

Before He establishes His earthly kingdom, he first takes up His bride to His Father's house in heaven.

[JoeCanada]

7 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

The "white horse" in Revelation is a  metaphor that builds on the passage in Matthew 24. It IS the same event. 

When He returns, it will be to establish His earthly Kingdom. The white horse is a kingly symbol. No, there will not be an actual horse, anymore than an actual dragon, or falling stars, or a prostitute. (He may choose to have a horse when He sets up His kingdom, but that is a different matter.)

Revelation is written in metaphoric, or symbolic, language. 

Have you read the OT passage that says that the clouds are God's chariot? That is a metaphor that blends the "clouds" in Matthew with the horse metaphor in Revelation.

 

Thanks for the dialogue...

You say..... "the white horse is a kingly symbol"

So... what about the rider on a white horse in Rev 6?.... Is it also a 'kingly symbol' for the one who comes to conquer?

What about the angels in Rev 19 who follow Jesus, also on 'white horses'? Are these "kingly angels"?

You also say...." the clouds are God's chariot? That is a metaphor that blends the "clouds" in Matthew with the horse metaphor in Revelation."

Not so sure about this. The 'clouds' are also a metaphor for 'horses'?

Are clouds only a metaphor for 'white horses'?.... What about other colored horses?

 

Throughout Scripture, both Old and New Testament, Jesus is pictured as the 'great cloud rider'. He ascended in a cloud and He will come back riding a cloud.... unless you think that the cloud is a metaphor for a horse..... kinda confusing don't you think?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

It just seems that when a passage or passages of Scripture seem to contradict a persons belief or their 'interpretation'.... then it's written off as "well, it's a metaphor....or simile.... or a figure of speech.... or it's a code word.... or an analogy.... its a euphemism.... or its symbolic.... yada yada yada!

It's anything but what is written. I realize that much of Revelation is symbolic, but a person has to be reasonable piecing it all together. Otherwise, we end up with a complete cluster (....) of symbols and metaphors and code words and figures of speech etc, etc.

[The Light]

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

Now, if you will follow my logical points here, you will see the Remnant CAN NOT be Jewish but can ONLY BE a Gentile Remnant. Those Gentiles who come to Christ after the pre 70th week rapture are a Remnant right? (small part of a whole).

Lets look at the passage, they are not the SEED of the Woman, they are the Woman. That SEED is Jesus sees Gal. 3:16 below, but first....... 

 

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood(A.C. Army) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth(Angry) with the woman(1/3 Israel who REPENT), and went to make war with the remnant(Small part) of her seed(Jesus is THAT SEED), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is self explanatory, if one simply thinks it through. Satan sent his Little Horn/Anti-Christ thug after the 1/3 who REPENT, but he can not get at them because God is protecting them via the elements of the earth just like in Egypt with the Fire Wall and the Red Sea parting. So, when vs. 17 says he gets ANGRY because he could not get at her he TURNS...........to go after the Remnant of HER SEED (which is Jesus as Gal. 3:16 says). Well, since he can not get at the 1/3, she can  not be THAT TARGET right?

Its just common sense. Now Zech. 13:8-9 says the 2/3 who refuse to repent will die. BUT.......2/3 can not be a Remnant AND the last part of vs. 17 says this "Remnant" has the Testimony of Jesus AND they keep the Commandments of God, well the 2/3 who refused to repent CAN NOT be that Remnant can  they? So, the remnant can not be the 1/3 Jews who repent nor the 2/3 who refuse to repent. So, it can ONLY BE the Remnant Gentile Church on earth AFTER the Rapture of the Church. This is why I see all of this, I question everything, no matter how many ties I point this out to a mid or post Rapture person they DODGE IT...........LOL. They know its true but it destroys they thesis.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Jesus is THAT ONE SEED. Thus the Remnant of THE SEED (Jesus) is the Church. So, you get the 12 tribes all wrong, they can't be the seed when its Jesus, they are the 12 tribes and the Seed of Abraham, the Woman's Seed is Jesus. Or you could say Abraham's seed = the 12 Tribes and the 12 Tribes Seed is Jesus. 

 

You point is taken; however, you seem to forget that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Additionally, God makes it clear that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. That means that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes. That is why we see a rapture at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. In Rev 16 we can see those raptured are singing the song of Moses.

Further, history show us that in WW2 they were trying to kill the Jews, because someone thought they were the end-time ruler of the world. This was no accident.

[The Light]

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

Only 1/3 repent, not every Jew (Israelite) repents. Its not a De facto of blindness else al Jews would see, thus the removal is not as if God did this himself, I think we the church help do this by our Rapture, which is why we need to get it right, we do not FLY OFF to heaven, we are CHANGED (from flesh man unto a Spirit Man......read 1 Cor. 15:44 we are sown as flesh men and raised a spirit men). Thus no flesh and blood can enter heaven vs. 50 says, so those of us alive at that time, well we have to be CHANGED (which means we leave out flesh body behind............WE DIE..........and go to be with the Lord where we will get our glorious bodies as a reward.) 

The Church has already flown off the heaven before the tribulation. This is why we see kings and priest in heaven in Revelation 5. This occurs at the time of 1 Thes 4.

When you talk of 1 Cor 15. That is not the Gentile rapture. It is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth, immediately after the tribulation. It is the Jews that FLY AWAY to heaven at the 6th seal rapture.

Psalms 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

They will then know we are of God. They will call on Jesus and repent, just before the Wrath of God falls via the 7 Trumps. We an see them fleeing in Rev. 7, the 144,000 is a CODE for the 1/3 or about 5 million Jews who repent.

There is no code. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes......just like it says. Not accepting what has written has thrown you completely off the trail. There is no private interpretation in scripture. 

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

Of course you NEVER MADE ONE SINGLE POINT. We all know God judged Israel many times, that however does not (TOO FUNNY) take away God's END TIME Prophesies which says He will bring the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into their land. That kind of shell game never works on me brother. 

I figured you could derive a conclusion from the written Word of God.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

You clearly do not understand prophecy, the one plus you used to have was you were at least Pre Trib. however on everything else you were off via prophecy so I figured it was only a matter of time until you changed your stance on that also. The 6th Seal is Jesus taking a SEAL off the SCROLL, and its only unsealed in Revelation 8, because that is where God's Wrath started via an Asteroid Impact. When you get to heaven check in and wink at ole Rev. Man, I will know that is you doing a mea culpa.

The wrath of God begins at the first trumpet not when the asteriod strikes.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

No, I shan't waste my time arguing a point that has no validity at all. You are really conflate and confused here, it just amazes me you guts can't look up what a Sealed Signet Ring did, it BOUND the message where it could not be read util all three Seals were Broken. Jesus being God has 7 Seals on it, meaning the Wrath can not come until Jesus UNBINDS the 7 Sealed Scroll. 

Exactly. Wrath cannot begin until the 7th seal is opened.

The first 6 seals can be found in Matthew 24. You keep acting like the seals are invalid and yet the seals 1-6 all happen with Jesus returning for the second rapture at the 6th seal. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT SO MANY ARE CONVINCED THAT THE RATURE IS POST TRIB? Because there is a post trib which is pre wrath rapture.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

Study it, quit buying into stuff other aught you long ago.

Why do you say things like this? You have NEVER heard the things that I post. The reason that you can't argue with me, is because I have not dreamed anything up. What the Word says is what I believe. Instead of going off the trail because I can't make sense of it. I stay on the trail and accept what is written. If you would just do that you would see it all fits together perfectly.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

Its SEVEN SEALS on a SCROLL. The Judgment can not come util all 7 seals are taken off.

The WRATH OF GOD cannot happen until the 7th seal is opened. The events of the  1st six seals happen as each seal is opened. For instance, the 5th seal is the great tribulation. 

TRIBULATION is over when Jesus returns at the 6th SEAL. Then the 7th SEAL is opened and the WRATH OF GOD begins. Wrath lasts 1-year.

 

 

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

Who can't see the First 5 Seals foretell the Anti-Christ coming 42 month rule.

We see these seals in Matt 24. When Jesus returns in Matthew 24 that is Jesus returning when the 6th seal is opened. We get another view of this in the coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

They 6th Seal foretells God's 42 month Wrath. The Rev. 8 7th Seal ALLOWS the Wrath to come. That is why it is over in Rev. 8. You guys just look past every clue.

Wrath is not over until Revelation 11. How do you not understand this?

On 5/14/2024 at 1:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

The 2nd Coming (which is not his 2nd time on earth) is the 2nd Advent.

No sir. The second coming is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. It occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven as we see the great multitude in Rev. 7. Part of them came out of the great tribulation.

The second advent occurs at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. We also see this at the end of the vials.

[Revelation Man]

14 minutes ago, The Light said:

You point is taken; however, you seem to forget that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

I agree, Daniel is mostly about the 70th week Jews plight, but its also about the Little Horn's actions.  But alas, Revelation is about both Jews and Gentiles, the climatic world's end as we know it via Satan's rule (Babylon the Great) who gets bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years during which time Jesus rules from Jerusalem.

The point is one has to read Revelation with NEW INSIGHT, knowing that God only in our end times (now) has chosen to reveal all things, if one seeks for that info and throws off old "men's ideas" which were mostly not of God because it was not time for Him to reveal all thins 50 years ago, or 200 years ago etc. etc.

 In Revelation we see both Jews (the 2/3 imho, are called in general Saints even though they never repent) who are called Saints and Christians who are called Martyrs of Jesus killed. But the 1/3 are not killed. However, those under the 5th Seal (which is a Prophetic Future Utterance) are only Gentile Martyrs, because to be a Martyr you have to die for God right? Well, the 2/3 are not of God and the 1/3 can't be gotten at. So those Martyrs can only be the Gentile Remnant Church

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

Additionally, God makes it clear that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

First-fruits of the Wheat (Israel) not the first-fruits of the Barley (Church) I personally do not think the old Jewish Saints were taken t heaven when Jesus died, I do think the Prophets and/or men like Moses and Elijah are in Heaven now, but not the masses of Jews. I also do not think we go straight to heaven, else why would the dead need to be raised when Jesus comes? 

So, the First-fruits of Israel are the masses who are of God the Father, his bride, who had faith before Jesus came or who came unto God via the Messiah's blood during the 70th week. Notice they have the Fathers name on their forehead !! There were two brides, the preferred in Rachel, and the forced in Leah. The 144,000 is not a real number God doesn't choose perfect numbers like 10 for the 10 Virgin Brides (is there only going to be 10 Church Members in Heaven? Makes no sense right? Smile) and 144,000 is a perfect number that describes ALL Israel just like 10 describes the FULL CHURCH (10 = Completeness). 

144,000 represents all Israel, not 144,000 male preachers, that is NOWHERE in the bible. The number 10 = Completeness and the number 12 = Fulness so we know that 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = "144,000" or ALL Israel who repents. When Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us 1/3 of Israel repents and we know 10 million Jews live in Israel and 15 million are alive worldwide, and we must assume its going to get so bad all or MOSTLY ALL, will move to Israel, then we must assume that 1/3 will equal 5 million or so Jews (Israelis) then that 144,000 is a CODE for 5 million or so Jews. Bit of course God was not going to tell Satan 2500 years ago which is why Zechariah used 1/3 nor 2000 years ago with John's Revelation, which is why He used 144,000. But just like with the Church, its a code number not a REAL NUMBER. People have to understand God's ways He delivers His word unto us in parables and codes to keep the enemy from understanding in full. Jesus told his disciples just that, he wanted them to understand his parables, but not the world.

47 minutes ago, The Light said:

That is why we see a rapture at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. In Rev 16 we can see those raptured are singing the song of Moses.

No, we see the Sun & Moon go DARK immediately after the tribulation [STARTS] why is this so hard for you to grasp? I showed how there has t be a 1260 day JUMP between Matt. 24:29 and Matt. 24:30 just like there is a 1260 day JUMP between Zechariah 14:2 and 3. Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are the three Chapters that actually bring the Wrath of God. Every other chapter past ch. 8 is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter, you just do not seem to be able to grasp that. 

52 minutes ago, The Light said:

Further, history show us that in WW2 they were trying to kill the Jews, because someone thought they were the end-time ruler of the world. This was no accident.

Satan does not care about TIME, his goal has been to kill of every Jews since Egyptian times when they were placed in bondage. 

[The Light]

On 5/14/2024 at 1:41 AM, Revelation Man said:

You can read or HEAR..........or find things on youtube. Only the Church gets Raptured to heave to marry the Lamb, NO ONE ELSE. Once you miss the wedding the Doors will be CLOSED. 

Sorry brother. Jacob had two brides and one was the chosen bride. We see the church in heaven in Revelation 5. There is no marriage supper then. We do not see the marriage supper until we see the great multitude in heaven, which is both brides. It is the woman and her seed, the 12 tribes that go through the great tribulation. The woman is in her place of protection during the tribulation and remains on earth during the 1-year wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the tribes across the earth, (THOSE THAT BELIEVE JESUS IS THE MESSIAH) will be raptued at the 6th seal. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. That tell us there is a rapture of the twelve tribes

Additionally, those 144,000 are not sealed to go through the wrath of God, they are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. If you understood that the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet you could see we are back in the seals in Revelation 14. From this we can determine that the 144,000 are raputed before the 6th seal.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:41 AM, Revelation Man said: