What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[Marathoner]

Agreed. I maintain that effective preaching is certainly a calling and a gift of the Spirit (the evangelist), but this does not mean that we cannot engage others with regard to this faith which the Lord gave to us. Testifying is part of that commission, so who would forbid a brother or a sister from following the commission?

I certainly wouldn't because I have engaged in testifying as well! How we do so and the words which we might speak vary but for those who are patient, waiting upon the Lord, He will deliver us into opportunities to participate in that great commission. 

Just to clear things up. 

Edited May 18, 2024 by Marathoner

[Tristen]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Christianity is a belief system.  One must hear the promise, and believe the promise.

The OP showed from Scripture to whom Jesus gave the GC.  "the eleven".  And in those days just after Jesus was ascended to heaven, Luke says the assembly of believers was 120.  Yet, Jesus gave the commission only to "the eleven", those He had been teaching for the 3.5 years of His ministry.

The GC is two-fold.  1) make disciples (evangelism) and 2) teach them everything Jesus taught His apostles, the eleven (discipleship).

The GC in the NT is fulfilled by men gifted with the teaching gifts, per Eph 4:11.  The purpose is to build up the church.

I generally agree - however, I would also point out that everything Jesus said, He said only to the people in His presence. Nevertheless, it was also recorded by God for our doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

That is, Jesus' recorded words have broader implications beyond the people He was directly addressing.

 

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Shepherd LEAD the sheep.  They don't serve the sheep.

I wouldn't submit to an ekklesia leader who didn't serve its members.

Luk 22:24-27  A dispute also arose among the disciples as to which of them would be considered the greatest.  (25)  So Jesus declared, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in authority over them call themselves benefactors.  (26)  But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves.  (27)  For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines? But I am among you as one who serves.

1Pe 5:1-4  The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:  (2)  Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;  (3)  nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;  (4)  and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

Heb 13:17  Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.

[Who me]

On 5/17/2024 at 12:30 AM, FreeGrace said:

Yes, and that isn't a command nor a commission.  It's for those who have been well trained and can explain the gospel clearly.

Unlike what we generally see today.  

The verse describes what ordinary believers did.

 

[FreeGrace]

18 hours ago, Marathoner said:

FreeGrace said:

If what you say here is correct, then there should be no need for the local church, the assembly and fellowship of believers, etc. 

That's your assumption.

I didn't assume anything.  My reply was directly to your comments.  Can you explain yourself here, as to how my reply to your comments is an assumption?  iow, prove the need for the local church if what you said is correct.

18 hours ago, Marathoner said:

You've done a fair job of misrepresenting my position and what I wrote.

How did I do that?  Again, my comments are based on what you wrote.  

18 hours ago, Marathoner said:

That's fine. I'm not one to pursue arguments that go nowhere. Take care.

If you don't want to defend your position, etc, that's ok.

[FreeGrace]

18 hours ago, Prycejosh1987 said:

The great commission was given to all.

This is the "traditional view", but the 3 texts quoted in the OP shows exactly who was present when Jesus commissioned the hearers:  "the eleven".

18 hours ago, Prycejosh1987 said:

But how that actually looks is diverse.

Actually, it's pretty straightforward.  The eleven began evangelizing and teaching converts.  Which is what Acts is all about.

18 hours ago, Prycejosh1987 said:

Paul mentions the body having different parts which work together as a whole.

Paul was speaking of spiritual gifts among the Body of Christ, and how they work together.  That had nothing to do with the GC.

18 hours ago, Prycejosh1987 said:

We all have a purpose and that looks different to each person. Some teachers, others pastors, and others donating, and others prophecy. Others healers and others other purposes. The point is everyone can do something.

Of course.  But that isn't what the OP is about.

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think this is the center of the matter. This what you disagreed with;

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection (Act.1:20–22)

This is what Peter said.  The plan was Peter's, not God's.  

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Paul did NOT accompany with the 12 during the time between the baptism of John and the same day He was taken up. You yourself have just testified that he had personal training well after that by the Lord.

Paul indicated that he spent 3 years in Arabia after his conversion.  That's about how long "the eleven" spent with Jesus during His ministry.  iow, the Lord spent as much time with Paul as He did with "the eleven".  So your point isn't taken.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Other brothers have given scripture in this thread that indicates testifying of the Lord Jesus is the duty of all Christians.

I don't disagree.  But that isn't the GC which is much more specific than that.  The GC is two-fold;  evangelize and teach the converts.  It takes a spiritual gift to teach others.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

These you have disagreed with as well. It seems that that is the only way to teach such a damaging tradition - disagree with scripture.

I am disagreeing with the tradition of Scripture, not the truth of Scripture.  The OP proves that Jesus specifically gave the GC to "the eleven" period.  It is tradition that teaches that every believer is to "go into all the world preaching the gospel, making disciples and TEACHING them everything I have taught you".  

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I suppose the next thing will be that only Pharisees must be born again because he spoke only to Nicodemus.

Well, that's weird.  Jesus spoke to ALL kinds of people.  Your premise is quite faulty.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Or maybe sick people need the physical spittle of Jesus to be healed.

Yes, they DO need what Jesus gives to be healed.  What else is there?

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You keep using the concept of The Great Commission, but yet to show it in scripture.

I proved it in the OP.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I suppose you "disagree" with what the bible says about Apollos. After all, he taught the wrong baptism;

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. (Ac 18:24–25).

He taught accurately the things of the Lord, but hadn't been trained/taught about John's baptism.  So what is there to disagree about?

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He wasn't one of the eleven, nor was he one of your twelve now that Paul was there. He did all that you deny, and the inspired record says he had the necessary talent.

I never denied anything about Apollos.  Why do you say that I have?  What evidence do you have?

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But this is not all because 1st Corinthians 14 says that infidels can come into an Assembly and be converted just by the behavior of the average saint!

I never said otherwise.  For EVERY believer, their lifestyle is what begins spiritual conversations that can lead to conversions.  1 Pet 3:15  

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth (1 Co 14:24–25)

Yep.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This all you "disagree" with.

I've just refuted your shotgun blast at my comments.  I disagree with the traditional view that the GC is commanded of all believers.

So, let me ask you this:  where in the NT (not gospels) does any of the writers give any church the command that parallels Matt 28:19,20?

Then, once you come up with the answer to how many verses have that, think about it.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I'm sure you need to examine your motives.

What sinister insinuation are you referring to?  Since you are "so sure".

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There are young Christians on this Forum. Are you not afraid of God's warning in 1st Corinthians 3?

Every believer must not only be aware of all the warnings in the NT, but make sure they don't violate them.

So, again, what insinuation are you referring to?

Young and old Christians SHOULD know the truth of Scripture, and NOT the traditions of Scripture.

Sad to say, but traditions have dogged evangelicals for many decades and centuries.  Kinda like what happened to the Pharisees in Jesus' day.

When one applies the verification method of Acts 17:11 to what people say, pastors say, etc, the truth comes out.

Go ahead, please, and find any Scripture that is contrary to what I've posted.

I'm either right or wrong.  I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

[FreeGrace]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. Our friend is very selective in his answers, and uses half quotes when he is not misrepresenting what others have said. Soon he'll be advocating the eating of blood because God only gave the prohibition to Noah.

This seems to be a rather obvious snide remark, full of sarcasm but lacking in any substance.  There is NOTHING in what I've posted that would result in the nonsense you presume.

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I always look at the end of a doctrine. What will it come to if followed to its logical end. This one is a whopper. It bans the preaching of Christ when the "eleven" are dead.

More unsubstantiated presumption.  Since you disagree with the OP, please find ALL the verses in the epistles where Paul commanded the church with the GC.

When you have your answer, take a moment to meditate on it.

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Agreed. I maintain that effective preaching is certainly a calling and a gift of the Spirit (the evangelist), but this does not mean that we cannot engage others with regard to this faith which the Lord gave to us.

Nor did I ever even suggest such.  The PRIMARY method of evangelizing by ALL believers is their lifestyle.  1 Pet 3:15 makes that very clear.  So I've NEVER even suggested that only certain believers engage with others.  That is preposterous.

I think what you are trying to defend is tradition, rather than truth.  Read the OP over again and prove me wrong.

17 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Testifying is part of that commission, so who would forbid a brother or a sister from following the commission?

Where have I "forbid" anyone from following the GC?  But do you even understand what is involved in the GC.  It isn't just preaching.  It requires the careful follow up of teaching the converts of EVERYTHING that Jesus taught "the eleven".

How many street evangelists do that?

And when are YOU going to "go into ALL the WORLD" to preach the gospel?  Oh, so you haven't YET?  What are you waiting for?  Read Matt 28:19 again.

17 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I certainly wouldn't because I have engaged in testifying as well! How we do so and the words which we might speak vary but for those who are patient, waiting upon the Lord, He will deliver us into opportunities to participate in that great commission. 

Just to clear things up. 

You've cleared nothing up.  The general tradition these days is that the GC means that "every disciple make a disciple".  It's always nice when a believer does make a disciple.  But the GC goes even farther.  It commands teaching that new disciple EVERYTHING that the Lord taught His "eleven".  Who is able to do that?

Only those with the necessary spiritual gift and plenty of training.  In the truth, NOT tradition.

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, Tristen said:

I generally agree - however, I would also point out that everything Jesus said, He said only to the people in His presence. Nevertheless, it was also recorded by God for our doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

Here, Paul is giving young Tim the progression of what pastors are to teach and how to deal with their congregations.

It all begins with the foundation;  doctrine, or teaching.  From there, the rebellious believers (children of God) are to be reproved, struggling believers are to be corrected, generally from bad teaching, which focused on tradition, and finally onward to spiritual maturity.

17 hours ago, Tristen said:

That is, Jesus' recorded words have broader implications beyond the people He was directly addressing.

Not the GC.  That is why we have the book of Acts.  To see how the GC was carried out.

I'm not saying, as some here have totally misread, that believers are not to witness to others.  I am saying that the specific GC was to "the eleven" as the Bible plainly says.

They were apostles and had the highest authority among believers.  They were the ones who evangelized large crowds and established churches all over.  And then spent time training/teaching them.

Every believer is responsible for having a lifestyle that invites questions about "the reason for the hope" that believers have.  1 Pet 3:15