What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

FreeGrace said:

Shepherd LEAD the sheep.  They don't serve the sheep.

I wouldn't submit to an ekklesia leader who didn't serve its members.

I don't know what you have in mind, but 2 Tim 3:16 is how pastors serve the sheep.  They need doctrine (not tradition), reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Luk 22:24-27  A dispute also arose among the disciples as to which of them would be considered the greatest.  (25)  So Jesus declared, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in authority over them call themselves benefactors.  (26)  But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves.  (27)  For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines? But I am among you as one who serves.

This isn't relevant to the GC, which Jesus specifically gave to "the eleven".

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

1Pe 5:1-4  The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:  (2)  Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;  (3)  nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;  (4)  and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

See above per 2 Tim 3:16.

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Heb 13:17  Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Here, the clear message is to submit to your leaders.  And "watching over souls" is what 2 Tim 3:16 is about.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This is what Peter said.  The plan was Peter's, not God's.  

Paul indicated that he spent 3 years in Arabia after his conversion.  That's about how long "the eleven" spent with Jesus during His ministry.  iow, the Lord spent as much time with Paul as He did with "the eleven".  So your point isn't taken.

I don't disagree.  But that isn't the GC which is much more specific than that.  The GC is two-fold;  evangelize and teach the converts.  It takes a spiritual gift to teach others.

I am disagreeing with the tradition of Scripture, not the truth of Scripture.  The OP proves that Jesus specifically gave the GC to "the eleven" period.  It is tradition that teaches that every believer is to "go into all the world preaching the gospel, making disciples and TEACHING them everything I have taught you".  

Well, that's weird.  Jesus spoke to ALL kinds of people.  Your premise is quite faulty.

Yes, they DO need what Jesus gives to be healed.  What else is there?

I proved it in the OP.

He taught accurately the things of the Lord, but hadn't been trained/taught about John's baptism.  So what is there to disagree about?

I never denied anything about Apollos.  Why do you say that I have?  What evidence do you have?

I never said otherwise.  For EVERY believer, their lifestyle is what begins spiritual conversations that can lead to conversions.  1 Pet 3:15  

Yep.

I've just refuted your shotgun blast at my comments.  I disagree with the traditional view that the GC is commanded of all believers.

So, let me ask you this:  where in the NT (not gospels) does any of the writers give any church the command that parallels Matt 28:19,20?

Then, once you come up with the answer to how many verses have that, think about it.

What sinister insinuation are you referring to?  Since you are "so sure".

Every believer must not only be aware of all the warnings in the NT, but make sure they don't violate them.

So, again, what insinuation are you referring to?

Young and old Christians SHOULD know the truth of Scripture, and NOT the traditions of Scripture.

Sad to say, but traditions have dogged evangelicals for many decades and centuries.  Kinda like what happened to the Pharisees in Jesus' day.

When one applies the verification method of Acts 17:11 to what people say, pastors say, etc, the truth comes out.

Go ahead, please, and find any Scripture that is contrary to what I've posted.

I'm either right or wrong.  I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

 

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This seems to be a rather obvious snide remark, full of sarcasm but lacking in any substance.  There is NOTHING in what I've posted that would result in the nonsense you presume.

More unsubstantiated presumption.  Since you disagree with the OP, please find ALL the verses in the epistles where Paul commanded the church with the GC.

When you have your answer, take a moment to meditate on it.

I dare say that you did not answer my objections. Your appreciation of Peter and the eleven, after being with Jesus for over three years, plus having received the Holy Spirit (Jn.20:22), plus being obedient about tarrying for, and receiving, the economic Holy Spirit just days later, is very defamatory and against all the evidence. You called them a "ragtag" bunch. Is this how you think of your fellow brothers in the Lord? You are very well schooled in the Bible. You would know what Jude says about dignitaries. This "ragtag" bunch carry the OFFICE of Apostles! You defend a Pastor while reviling an Apostle?

But pray, from where did the "ragtags" get such an idea then to examine the Psalms and come up with the idea of Judas' replacement. And how will Paul fulfill a throne over Israel when his ministry is to the "uncircumcision"?

You dismissed the argument of Apollos because you had to. Your OP stated that ONLY the ELEVEN were commissioned. Apollos was not one of them. And Acts 6:2, if you reckon it to be inspired, calls them the "twelve."

You dismissed the argument of the gospel been promoted by the persecution WITH the "eleven" still in Jerusalem. How could the gospel go out if the only one's authorized and trained for it stayed?

I agree with you that those of us who are not gifted evangelists come under pressure. But is not our inadequacy exactly what drives us ot the God of all resources?

For a person of your sharp intellect you would know what my warning was. I did not write it. If you mar God's Assembly He has promised to mar you. There are young Christians who struggle with preaching the gospel. Through your writing, obviously as a schooled brother (sister), they could think that they are relieved of testifying of Christ and His work. You may call it "snide" but I tell you that it is deadly serious. Let us both be clear. God keeps His promises. Ask Ananias, or Saphira.

But let us part brothers. Your statement that our Lord only addressed the eleven is true. What should be disputed is how eleven, who stayed in Jerusalem, could bring the gospel "to the uttermost part of the earth" if they are the only ones authorized to do so?

Peace. Forgive me if I was too energetic in "contending for THE faith"

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This isn't relevant to the GC, which Jesus specifically gave to "the eleven".

See 2Timothy 3:16 and it is most relevant.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I dare say that you did not answer my objections.

My style is to address each point of other posters.  Please list your objections and I'll answer them.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your appreciation of Peter and the eleven, after being with Jesus for over three years, plus having received the Holy Spirit (Jn.20:22), plus being obedient about tarrying for, and receiving, the economic Holy Spirit just days later, is very defamatory and against all the evidence.

What? "defamatory"??  How do you figure?  Peter was part of "the eleven".  I have no idea what you are thinking.  Please clarify.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You called them a "ragtag" bunch.

Did not.  Please strive for accuracy when telling me what I have said.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Is this how you think of your fellow brothers in the Lord?

Apparently you have me confused with someone erlse.  Please explain what you seem to be insinuating here.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You are very well schooled in the Bible. You would know what Jude says about dignitaries. This "ragtag" bunch carry the OFFICE of Apostles! You defend a Pastor while reviling an Apostle?

OK, I'm getting a bit tired of your errors.  Where did I "revile an apostle"?  I'd like the page and post #s.  

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But pray, from where did the "ragtags" get such an idea then to examine the Psalms and come up with the idea of Judas' replacement.

Read Acts 1 again.  All I said is accurate.  Peter came up with the plan.  He quoted 2 verses.  1 was to leave the office vacant, and the other one said Judas would be replaced.  There was nothing about rolling the dice in either verse.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And how will Paul fulfill a throne over Israel when his ministry is to the "uncircumcision"?

Well, I've been reading all of Acts monthly for over 22 years and I KNOW where Paul started;  to the Jews.  It was only after repeated rejection by the Jews that he then strictly went to Gentiles.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You dismissed the argument of Apollos because you had to.

No, I explained what happened.  I'm beginning to conclude that you rush through the posts of others and/or apply a bias that I don't have.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your OP stated that ONLY the ELEVEN were commissioned.

No, I quoted what Scripture STATED.  Do you know the difference?  I gave all 3 texts where the GC is referenced.  In EVERY text, it is clear to whom Jesus gave the GC:  to "the eleven".  

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Apollos was not one of them. And Acts 6:2, if you reckon it to be inspired, calls them the "twelve."

That's what men do.  God didn't tell Peter to roll the dice and He would over-rule free falling dice.  

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You dismissed the argument of the gospel been promoted by the persecution WITH the "eleven" still in Jerusalem.

No, I answered your argument.  Many priests were coming to the faith and "the eleven" were TEACHING them EVERYTHING that Jesus had taught "the eleven".

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

How could the gospel go out if the only one's authorized and trained for it stayed?

See above.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I agree with you that those of us who are not gifted evangelists come under pressure.

But there's no need for that.  Guilt is a horrible thing for a believer to have to deal with, esp when the claim is false.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But is not our inadequacy exactly what drives us ot the God of all resources?

Of course, but that isn't the issue in the OP.  What you say here is true for every believer, regardless of which spiritual gift(s) they may have.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

For a person of your sharp intellect you would know what my warning was. I did not write it. If you mar God's Assembly He has promised to mar you.

Where are you getting all these weird ideas from?  When and where did I EVER "mar God's assembly?  I think you've got quite an imagination.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There are young Christians who struggle with preaching the gospel.

Maybe they have the spiritual gift of administration, or helps, or something else.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Through your writing, obviously as a schooled brother (sister), they could think that they are relieved of testifying of Christ and His work.

That comment isn't fair.  I've been VERY CLEAR about what ALL believers are commanded to do.  I guess you don't read my replies to other posters.  

1 Peter 3:15 and Col 4:6 are the norm.  Every believer is to be PREPARED to give answers to those who ask.  So the real key here is whether the believer's life begs such questions, which opens up spiritual conversations.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You may call it "snide" but I tell you that it is deadly serious.

I call a "snide" a "snide" when I see one.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Let us both be clear. God keeps His promises. Ask Ananias, or Saphira.

Absolutely.  Now, what is your point here?  What are you insinuating?  That because I have read the Bible and KNOW to whom Jesus gave the GC, I'm going to be struck down or something?  Are you serious?

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But let us part brothers. Your statement that our Lord only addressed the eleven is true. What should be disputed is how eleven, who stayed in Jerusalem, could bring the gospel "to the uttermost part of the earth" if they are the only ones authorized to do so?

Just read Acts.  They DID get to the uttermost part of the earth.  Paul certainly did.  Probably more than any other apostle.

God hand picks His apostles, at least the first 12.  Paul was a replacement for the opportunist.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Peace. Forgive me if I was too energetic in "contending for THE faith"

That wouldn't be the word I would have picked.  :)  

I equally contend for the TRUTH of the FAITH.

The problem today seems to be that TRADITION has taken precedence over TRUTH.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

See 2Timothy 3:16 and it is most relevant.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

Great verse!  Now, to whom was Paul addressing here?  Young Tim, a pastor.  One of the gifts that are involved directly with the GC.  The word "teaching" means foundational teaching, or doctrine.  The pastor must get his own doctrine straight before he will be able to do anything else.  Like reproving, correcting and training others.

Have you found any reference to the GC in any of the epistles?  There are NONE.  What does that tell you?  

It is very instructive.

[AdHoc]

On 5/18/2024 at 1:54 AM, FreeGrace said:

Where did I decide that?  It was not until that ragtag group received the Holy Spirit did they accomplish anything.  They were trained by Jesus.  But they needed the indwelling Holy Spirit and His filling to serve God according to His will.

For @FreeGrace

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

My style is to address each point of other posters.  Please list your objections and I'll answer them.

What? "defamatory"??  How do you figure?  Peter was part of "the eleven".  I have no idea what you are thinking.  Please clarify.

Did not.  Please strive for accuracy when telling me what I have said.

Apparently you have me confused with someone erlse.  Please explain what you seem to be insinuating here.

OK, I'm getting a bit tired of your errors.  Where did I "revile an apostle"?  I'd like the page and post #s.  

Read Acts 1 again.  All I said is accurate.  Peter came up with the plan.  He quoted 2 verses.  1 was to leave the office vacant, and the other one said Judas would be replaced.  There was nothing about rolling the dice in either verse.

Well, I've been reading all of Acts monthly for over 22 years and I KNOW where Paul started;  to the Jews.  It was only after repeated rejection by the Jews that he then strictly went to Gentiles.

No, I explained what happened.  I'm beginning to conclude that you rush through the posts of others and/or apply a bias that I don't have.

No, I quoted what Scripture STATED.  Do you know the difference?  I gave all 3 texts where the GC is referenced.  In EVERY text, it is clear to whom Jesus gave the GC:  to "the eleven".  

That's what men do.  God didn't tell Peter to roll the dice and He would over-rule free falling dice.  

No, I answered your argument.  Many priests were coming to the faith and "the eleven" were TEACHING them EVERYTHING that Jesus had taught "the eleven".

See above.

But there's no need for that.  Guilt is a horrible thing for a believer to have to deal with, esp when the claim is false.

Of course, but that isn't the issue in the OP.  What you say here is true for every believer, regardless of which spiritual gift(s) they may have.

Where are you getting all these weird ideas from?  When and where did I EVER "mar God's assembly?  I think you've got quite an imagination.

Maybe they have the spiritual gift of administration, or helps, or something else.

That comment isn't fair.  I've been VERY CLEAR about what ALL believers are commanded to do.  I guess you don't read my replies to other posters.  

1 Peter 3:15 and Col 4:6 are the norm.  Every believer is to be PREPARED to give answers to those who ask.  So the real key here is whether the believer's life begs such questions, which opens up spiritual conversations.

I call a "snide" a "snide" when I see one.

Absolutely.  Now, what is your point here?  What are you insinuating?  That because I have read the Bible and KNOW to whom Jesus gave the GC, I'm going to be struck down or something?  Are you serious?

Just read Acts.  They DID get to the uttermost part of the earth.  Paul certainly did.  Probably more than any other apostle.

God hand picks His apostles, at least the first 12.  Paul was a replacement for the opportunist.

That wouldn't be the word I would have picked.  :)  

I equally contend for the TRUTH of the FAITH.

The problem today seems to be that TRADITION has taken precedence over TRUTH.

Your comprehensive answer is appreciated.

[FreeGrace]

40 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

For @FreeGrace

Thank you.  But it was true.

[WilliamL]

On 5/16/2024 at 8:42 AM, FreeGrace said:

Today, since there are no 'apostles' or 'prophets', it is the evangelists, pastors and teachers who fulfill the GC.  

Who says there are no apostles and prophets? Certainly not the scriptures.

Besides the 12, Paul, Barnabas, and James the brother of Jesus were specifically called apostles. Which term literally means a "sent one." No reason to believe this qualification -- one whom Jesus calls and sends -- has ever ceased.

Likewise with prophets. Nowhere does the scripture say that the gift of prophecy will cease during the Church Age.

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

FreeGrace said:

Today, since there are no 'apostles' or 'prophets', it is the evangelists, pastors and teachers who fulfill the GC. 

Who says there are no apostles and prophets? Certainly not the scriptures.

There are disagreements between evangelicals on this subject.

11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Besides the 12, Paul, Barnabas, and James the brother of Jesus were specifically called apostles. Which term literally means a "sent one." No reason to believe this qualification -- one whom Jesus calls and sends -- has ever ceased.

Likewise with prophets. Nowhere does the scripture say that the gift of prophecy will cease during the Church Age.

Let's get back to the OP.  The GC was specifically given face to face to "the eleven".  And Paul as well, later on.  What name will be on the 12th foundation of the New Jerusalem, per Rev 21:14?  I say it will be Paul, the arguably greatest apostle ever.  He wrote the most epistles that were inspired by the Spirit, he travelled more extensively than any other, as recorded by Dr Luke in Acts.  

Edited May 20, 2024 by FreeGrace