Breaking with tradition

[enoob57]

Yes it falls under the Biblical mandate

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

¹⁵Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Anne2]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:03 AM, JohnD said:

An example of how easily misled mankind (human beings) are:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This innocuous passage prove that most Bibles and most Christian circles fail to even rightly divide the word of truth categorically:

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For tradition has placed the dividing line between Old and New Testaments between Malachi 4:6 and Matthew 1:1. Bibles, study Bibles, commentaries, Bible  software often contain bold title or even a title page between the two verses "NEW TESTAMENT" when clearly Hebrews 9:16-17 states the Old Testament did not end and the New Testament did not begin until the death of our LORD on the cross.

So what's the big deal?

It IS a big deal!

Everything prior to the death of the LORD Jesus on the cross is Old Testament and under the Law of Moses. Not understanding this or acknowledging this fact is a hole that legalism passes through to taint the theology of Grace.

Example:

Matthew 6:14–15 (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That is Old Covenant Old Testament law (Isaiah 58:5-6 / Exodus 23:21).

There are many such examples where legalism and the satanic mingling of the two covenants occurs by simply putting the dividing line between the two covenants in the wrong place.

And notice how universally misled the Church has been.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

New Covenant New Testament Grace is:

1. Christ died for all human sin (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2)

2. Faith alone in Christ Jesus alone activates this grace in our individual lives (John 3:16-18 Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29, John 16:27)

The circumcision were under the old covenant and subject to its judgement. John's Baptism. He warned them to repent because the wrath of God was coming upon those in the old covenant.

Jesus on the other hand, came preaching the kingdom of heaven which is new covenant...

Both are present imo. It is just because the time of the curse and the wrath prophesied to Israel was coming. And the prophet they were to listen to, like Moses had come. No? yes?

Edited May 6 by Anne2

[kwikphilly]

I especially like @Indentured Servant

comments which I thought were most on target of the Topic or perhaps the point of the OP and in conjunction with the Title of this Thread has somehow escaped me?

I'm in no means disregarding the majority of the comments contributed but none stood out to me as his did- the fact that the Body of Christ is not USED as we have been Made to be which is EFFECTIVE- you see " gatherings" an yet everyone is following along with a scheduled" program"- that in itself is a tradition put in place by men( no wonder why we call it ORGANIZED religion) funny thing is that it that it is polar opposite of where the " New Covenant" has brought us   Freedom in Christ

He mentioned there is one speaker/teacher and basically an " audience" ( in my own words)- An effective,productive Body is more organized than any ritual could ever be resulting in Receiving a Rhema Word for the Good of the people and to the Glory of God

But no,most "church" services on Sunday are a scripted routine,a ritual not unlike the burnt sacrifices,offerings & even vain repetitions of many empty words that are not pleasing or acceptable in God's Sight

@JohnD has emphasized the " when" of the Old Testament being in effect until the New Testament began- of course it's his Thread so he can go in whatever direction he pleases but now it seems to have taken the discussion somewhere else- I believe what is of great importance is not as much about the " when" but of the WHO

Because Jesus is our Head and we are all members of His Body we are all equipped with specific  Gifts to serve as ONE supernatural  Body- Jesus Sent the Helper to Indwell in each member that the Body Functions under ONE HEAD- Jesus !

We see no Work or Wonders on Sunday,none Prophesying,no Healings,no Edifications,Confirmations,it is of no effect because Holy Spirit is hindered - each member is bound at service and limited to occasional " Amen " - who is accessing the Heart & Mind of Christ doing the Will of our Father? No one praying in ONE Accord in Spirit-no,sing songs of Praise & Worship than listen to a scripted speech

Tradition has brought us far far from a 5 fold Ministry using an effective Functioning Body.....

With love in Christ,Kwik

 

 

[Starise]

I believe there will be certain rites practiced in the new heaven/new earth as a directive to God's people. I see a differentiation between this and those who were "grafted in" the vine.

Paul was clear to those Jews who were still incorporating things like circumcision into the new body of believers. In one instance he confronted one Jew who was disassociating himself from the new non jew believers. While this was likely a historical correction that hopefully hasn't been repeated much since, it probably still exists occasionally and maybe why it's made clear in various places in the scriptures that we are to be one body together and not use jewish tradition as a divider. 

The days, celebrations on the Jewish calender have significance to future events and have meaning to all believers so far as their significance because they were mostly God given for good reasons and often point us to God's work both then, now and into the future. I think we can get into the habit of an either/or mindset in that we think that we can't look back if we are looking forward to the NT.We clearly can learn in looking both ways.

I see a difference between these things and the inate tendency of humans to want regularity and tradition. I don't fall into that group. I'm about as abstract as they come. It's a wonder I even dress myself. Even I have my routines, up at 5:30-6 coffee bible reading and prayer. I hate dressing up and I dislike rigidity in Christian services. If I could give advice in two words it would be, "loosten up":) Let the gifts flow with wisdom, stop trying to be the high horse and designating who else is the high horse.Jesus is the high horse always.

But that's me. I know others look forward to church liturgy as a way to worship. I don't condemn you for it. I would only say don't let it replace what's important. Instead let it reenforce what's important.

[Alive]

The answer to all of this is as simple as can be. In any assembly whether two or many, Christ must be seen, appreciated, understood and yielded to as Head of the Church...of  that gathering/assembly.

When any man usurps that Authority, the Holy Spirit is hindered from working.

Understanding and maturity varies and God is gracious--but this principle needs to be taught. Should be taught.

[Starise]

16 minutes ago, Alive said:

The answer to all of this is as simple as can be. In any assembly whether two or many, Christ must be seen, appreciated, understood and yielded to as Head of the Church...of  that gathering/assembly.

When any man usurps that Authority, the Holy Spirit is hindered from working.

Understanding and maturity varies and God is gracious--but this principle needs to be taught. Should be taught.

Yep for sure.

[JohnD]

I apologize for my tardiness. And that I haven't the time to read every response.

The over all point I was making is that while there were in fact traditions of God handed down through the prophets,

the traditions of satan (through man) has infiltrated the body of believers in both Old and New Covenants.

Having debated rabbis on the subject, Moses himself was led astray by his father in law Jethro who was the priest of Midian

by his advice in Exodus 18 which seemed to make good sense to Moses to delegate his authority to a body of elders...

What Moses failed to do was consult the LORD before implementing the idea.

Later when Joshua was duped by the Gibeonites (Joshua 9) when he did not consult the LORD, it can be said he learned that mistake from

his mentor Moses in Exodus 18.

F.Y.I. the Sanhedrin who condemn the LORD Jesus to death and opposed him his entire ministry trace their origin to that same body of elders

that Moses commissioned at the behest of his pagan priest father-in-law.

It is also through that same body that the Jewish people were misled from their Messiah Jesus (the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus called it) effecting

Jewish people to this very day.

[JohnD]

A New Covenant example of the tradition of satan through man is the legalization of Grace

by placing the dividing line between Law and Grace in the wrong place (Between Malachi 4 and Matthew 1) when clearly 

Hebrews 9:16-17 places it on the cross of Christ. Then the Sermon on the Mount (which Jesus spoke as his divine commentary on the

mishandling of the Law) ← which is why he often said"you have heard it said... but I say..."

And how you have Old Testament requirements on forgiveness...

a) unless you forgive everyone your Heavenly Father will not forgive you your sins

b) better to cut off a limb than lust or steal and enter life maimed rather than hell fully intact

John 3:16-18, Ephesians 2:8-10, John 16:29, John 16:27, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 all state that through

faith alone in Christ alone is one saved / forgiven.

The Gospels are essentially the bridge between the two Covenants containing sections of both.

And by not identifying this and other traditions of... men... the Church has adopted and affirmed many false and heretical doctrines

and the chiefest gate into that has been the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[JohnD]

Rome brought Old Testament division (clergy / laity) into the New Covenant

when Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10, 1 Peter 2:3-9 clearly indicate the priesthood

of all believers.

God's original plan for Israel to be a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6) was thwarted by the

rebellion of Exodus 32 (when only the Levites stood with Moses and God). That's why the Levites

were chosen to be the priestly tribe.

[JohnD]

In 1 Chronicles 28:5-6 King David followed a misinterpretation of 2 Samuel 7:12-13 to have his son Solomon

erect a physical temple for the LORD, but in closer scrutiny of the scriptures we learn that the LORD intended

only the Messiah Jesus to build a house for him (Zechariah 6:12-13) and that house would not be mortar and stone

but flesh and blood (Matthew 16:18 / 1 Corinthians 3:16).

God condescended to deal with Israel through the temple Solomon built. As he condescended to deal with Israel through

the monarchy (1 Samuel 8). But Israel was seldom in the good graces of the LORD for very long after those points.

The kingdom was split in two, ransacked by foreign monarchs. the temple was destroyed twice and desecrated.

Solomon conscripted pagan artisans to build the temple introducing such pagan symbols as the seal of Solomon

(star of David, which in fact David never knew)... then came the foreign women he married and built temples to their 

gods in the Holy Land after having dedicated the Jewish temple with blood sacrifices that broke every law to that point.  

God told Moses to erect the tabernacle.

But no one whose kingdom would last any less than forever (that would be that of Jesus) should build a temple to God:

Isaiah 66:1–6 (KJV)
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.