General- Controversial- Humor- Question?

[Sower]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Verse 28-29 say that EVERY circumstance of your life, good or bad, will be used by God to CHANGE YOUR DISPOSITION. Because those who Go FOREKNEW he predestinated them to BE CONFORMED

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

FOREKNEW is not predestination.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He must undergo a CONFORMING.

             Ad Hoc, Ad Rem...

 Thanks AdHoc

 

[farouk]

2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Plus; as to predestination, or confinement to a particular cause, for a particular purpose, what freedom does each individual have, except to be what he has been created to be, and to be used for by God?

Example :

 

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

You will say then unto me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

@Neighbor At the same time, chapter 2 is about repentance, which is to be preached.

[RdJ]

 

https://predestinationstation.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/romans-917-18-gods-right-to-harden-pharaoh/

The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart was therefore a legitimate response by God to Pharaoh’s earlier rejection of him. It is clear that Pharaoh already did not want to let God’s people leave, so God’s hardening of him was not making him do something he did not want to do; instead it was giving Pharaoh the strength to do what he already did want to do.

https://predestinationstation.wordpress.com/2016/03/18/romans-922-23-why-does-god-put-up-with-unbelieving-ethnic-israelites-can-vessels-of-wrath-become-vessels-of-mercy/

In the structure of Romans 9:6-29 (which is one of the sections of Romans 9-11), verse 22 matches with verse 17: ‘For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth”’. Both verses refer to God showing/making known his power for the purpose of the proclamation of the good news about God. As we saw when considering verse 17, God was explaining to Pharaoh why he had not yet issued full and complete judgement against him by killing him, which was what Pharaoh deserved following his rejection of God. God explained that he had instead kept Pharaoh in his position of power and had hardened him because doing this caused a greater spread of the good news about God, which was achieved through the great miracles/plagues and final triumphant exodus of God’s people. This had a much greater impact than if God had simply killed Pharaoh immediately and then quietly led his people out of Egypt.

 

For a similar reason, God did not immediately kill the unbelieving ethnic Israelites upon their rejection of Christ, even though this was their deserved full judgement. Instead, God kept them in place and hardened them (also an act of judgement). The result of this was that Gentiles were coming to trust in Christ following the spread of the gospel to the nations. If God had immediately killed all the ethnic Israelites who rejected Christ, the gospel would not have spread as quickly, as more believers would have stayed in Jerusalem rather than leaving to flee persecution. Furthermore, this would have removed the opportunity for any of these ethnic Israelites to repent at a later time and come to trust in Christ. One such person who did this was Paul himself! Others would also do this, as Paul explains in Romans 11 (see below).

 

[RdJ]

https://predestinationstation.wordpress.com/2016/01/01/romans-920-21-do-unbelieving-ethnic-israelites-have-a-right-to-criticise-gods-judgement-the-potter-and-the-clay/

 

The potter and clay analogy used by Paul appears in the Old Testament. It appears briefly in Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9, which Paul alludes to in verse 20b. Its most extensive appearance is in Jeremiah 18. We will see that its use there fits with the context we have seen from Romans. Here is Jeremiah 18:1-11:

“[1] The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: [2] “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” [3] So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. [4] And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. [5] Then the word of the LORD came to me: [6] “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. [7] If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, [8] and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. [9] And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, [10] and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. [11] Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’”

The potter was making a vessel, but the vessel ‘was spoiled in the potter’s hand’ (verse 4). The potter did not spoil it himself, but rather this was an action of the vessel. In response to this, the potter reworked it into another vessel.

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Sower said:

 

 

             Ad Hoc, Ad Rem...

 Thanks AdHoc

 

God foreknew it is within the context to apply to his people in the Old Testament as Abraham and his descendants who were gathered to Abraham. God foreknew that they had to wait to be gathered to him in Jesus Christ in the image of his Son Jesus Christ. They were his people in the Covenant of Cirumcision and they were his people in the Covenant of Sinai and they were gathered away from Him because they were predestined to be gathered to him in Jesus Christ in the righteousness and the Life or in the image of His Son Jesus Christ. God Knew that He will have children and He had to wait to gathered them unto himself till the time of Jesus Christ in the name of Jesus Christ being sanctified and justified in the blood of the Slain Lamb of God. And the same is for everyone in the world who would believe in him. Because Jesus Christ died for all, for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world. God has children only in Jesus Christ. 

And he foreknew Aaron but also Aaron had to wait together with Abraham to be gathered to God in Jesus Christ. Which means no one was gathered to God before Jesus Christ death and Resurrection as Jesus Christ had to be the first one. Besides Elijah and Moses from the descendants of Abraham whom God took them before they died. God foreknew those who were his but he had to and they had to wait to be gathered to him when they were included in Jesus Christ. And for the rest of the world also only in Jesus Christ not by some other way. This is why we believe and say that Jesus Christ is our peace with the Heavenly Father. 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

God foreknew it is within the context to apply to his people in the Old Testament as Abraham and his descendants who were gathered to Abraham. God foreknew that they had to wait to be gathered to him in Jesus Christ in the image of his Son Jesus Christ. They were his people in the Covenant of Cirumcision and they were his people in the Covenant of Sinai and they were gathered away from Him because they were predestined to be gathered to him in Jesus Christ in the righteousness and the Life or in the image of His Son Jesus Christ. God Knew that He will have children and He had to wait to gathered them unto himself till the time of Jesus Christ in the name of Jesus Christ being sanctified and justified in the blood of the Slain Lamb of God. And the same is for everyone in the world who would believe in him. Because Jesus Christ died for all, for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world. God has children only in Jesus Christ. 

And he foreknew Aaron but also Aaron had to wait together with Abraham to be gathered to God in Jesus Christ. Which means no one was gathered to God before Jesus Christ death and Resurrection as Jesus Christ had to be the first one. Besides Elijah and Moses from the descendants of Abraham whom God took them before they died. God foreknew those who were his but he had to and they had to wait to be gathered to him when they were included in Jesus Christ. And for the rest of the world also only in Jesus Christ not by some other way. This is why we believe and say that Jesus Christ is our peace with the Heavenly Father. 

Yes. Faith is the requirement, not intellectual knowledge. A man can look forward to Christ like Eve did, or one can embrace Him like Peter did in Matthew 16, or you can look back and believe like we do. Intellectual knowledge is ultimately necessary to modify our behavior in our walk with Him. Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses believed without even the written word. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are guaranteed to be in the Kingdom, Noah is the only father saved in the flood and preached coming judgment, Enoch never saw death and Moses is raised after a fight for his body so that he can appear in the Kingdom in Mathew 17. You can't see or enter the Kingdom unless born again (Jn.3:3-5). You can't be born again without faith (Jn.1:12-13)

 

Edit: I think I just answered in the wrong thread. Please excuse me. I'll leave it anyway as some of it pertinent.

Edited May 31, 2024 by AdHoc
Apology

[Neighbor]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

the predestination is to be changed, not to be saved.

 

Hi, Interesting take, BUT I do not think it is supported by the entirety, the immediate context, of what is  now a days noted as Chapter 8 of Romans.  It is by the Spirit that one is changed. One does not change of their own accord and then the Spirit adds on.

As to the Spirit not slaying the first born of any Egyptian, or slaying any first born of a Hebrew. I find support only for the Spirit not slaying those first born of the families any family that followed God's instructions precisely.

Could all hear alike and be led to follow God's instructions precisely? That is  another question for which there is no answer that I know about. I would entertain speculation that  there were first born of Hebrew families that were slain;  and who knows, perhaps some fortunate Egyptians that  followed God's instructions. I think the opportunity to heed God was there. That is speculation that goes nowhere useful though. I also think God predestined that the opportunity would not be taken up by the Egyptians.

It served God's  good purpose that the rapidly growing population  of Hebrews be a threat to the entire Egyptian population. So much so that  it was  seen as a good thing by Pharaoh to be rid of them all, or  more likely to allow them to flee giving justification  for his own troops to kill off many and bring back a much lower manageable number  as slaves once again. All speculative, and all one can do is see the moves made on the chessboard of life recorded as history, but really is the reveal of Jesus.

[Neighbor]

7 hours ago, farouk said:

@Neighbor At the same time, chapter 2 is about repentance, which is to be preached.

Hi, Yes it is but is it not that repentance is to hear Change your mind change your mind change your mind or repent repent repent.

To repent is to change mindset, give up what had been closely held ( Even a doctrine), and accept new (doctrine), rather than being the actions following a change of mind (Repentance). 

[Marathoner]

It's simple, really. 

The Lord declares the end from the beginning:

“Remember this, and be assured;
Recall it to mind, you wrongdoers.
Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My plan will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a distant country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, I will certainly do it."
(Isaiah 46:8-11 NASB)

The words of the Lord are always fulfilled:

For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it produce and sprout,
And providing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes out of My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the purpose for which I sent it.
(Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB)

God does whatever He pleases: 
 

Not to us, Lord, not to us,
But to Your name give glory,
Because of Your mercy, because of Your truth.
Why should the nations say,
“Where, then, is their God?”
But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.
(Psalm 115:1-3 NASB)

It's clear that God, who knows all things, is Almighty --- He answers to no one, doing whatever He pleases. This includes not conforming to the resident belief systems and peculiar systems of theology which many men champion and subsequently adhere to. @AdHoc has the right of it where John Calvin was concerned; my own impression of the man is as follows: he grasped the first sentence of this paragraph marvelously (the Lord is Almighty). However, the umbrella of beliefs and theological peculiarities of what is now known as "Calvinism" were established and codified after Calvin passed from this earth. It's good to point toward that fact. 

As for myself, I witness three examples of the Lord moving upon us in the scriptures:

One who is chosen according to the purpose and will of the Lord (the twelve are an excellent example);
The one who is chosen, and then called (certain Pharisees who either met secretly with the Lord, or were added to the Body after He ascended);
And finally, those who hear the Lord and believe (multitudes in the Gospels).

There is no stratification among those who belong to the Lord. There is no place for pride nor boasting on our part. The will of the one who is chosen according to His purpose is irrelevant, remembering that the Lord always accomplishes His good pleasure. The will of one who is chosen and then called is indeed important, for that pleases the Lord. The will of those who hear and believe are important in like manner.

Edited May 31, 2024 by Marathoner

[Neighbor]

6 hours ago, RdJ said:

The result of this was that Gentiles were coming to trust in Christ following the spread of the gospel to the nations.

Hi, I think -if I understand you that I presently  have a different understanding, in that the Apostles far as I understand split into pairs some going to the Jews and some to what is referenced as  the Gentiles.

 I may be in error, but recollection  is that the church at Jerusalem  were Jews that had failed to return  to their own homes after pentecost and had sold off all the goods, had not tended their own homeland farms and were in serious financial need. Thus Paul's plea for other churches to raise money for him to send to those that had  stayed at Jerusalem thinking Christ Jesus soon return was  happening-now while they awaited him.

Presently I am away from much of my own notes and so I emphasize I could be in error! Yet it is what I recall.

Thanks for exercising my own brain cells! There is lots of really good commentary and insight from all that have taken up conversation on this thread. Very cool! Makes for stuff to study (read) within the Bible,  pray on, and think over.