Let's talk about RESURRECTION!

Diaste · June 26, 2024

On 6/24/2024 at 4:10 PM, Retrobyter said:

Anyone and EVERYONE of those who belong to the Messiah who is Anointed to be Israel's King. That includes ALL who will be His subjects, children of Israel, including the Jews (children of Judah), and the believers from other nations!

That's a general definition outside the context. The context is the return of Jesus and the gathering. The group so gathered up are not defined here except by 'those that are Christ's at His coming'. To more fully understand just who these people are one would have to look for the gathering after it has happened. Fortunately we have just such a view in Rev 7.

In Rev 7 we see the group defined by the answer to the questions, Who? and When? I Thess does not answer these tow questions specifically, where Rev 7 does. That Who? and When? are those that came out from within the great tribulation. Indeed, these are clearly Christ's and well defined by from whence the come and what they have done.

By contrast, I see no where in scripture a very large group numbering in the 10s of billions, presumably, that were taken up from the grave and plucked alive from the earth, from all time from Adam to the 2nd advent, standing about the throne having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

In Rev 7 the origin of the group is clearly defined and it is from a specific time period sandwiched in between the A of D and the 2nd advent. In fact, there are two other witnesses, in Rev 15 and Rev 20, that specify this group on the sea of glass and living and reigning with Jesus are from a narrow window on the time/space continuum.

So the group in Rev 7 is not from all time.

Where is the group of billions from all time pictured in heaven about the throne?

Diaste · June 26, 2024

On 6/24/2024 at 4:10 PM, Retrobyter said:

There were NOT "many raised at Jesus' resurrection." THAT is a REAL error! His Resurrection in the First Century was JUST HIMSELF! He was the "firstfruits," a SINGULAR word!

Matt 27

"When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

Many were raised with Jesus.

On 6/24/2024 at 4:10 PM, Retrobyter said:

There is ONE general resurrection - the resurrection of the just - at the BEGINNING of the Messiah's reign when He returns to begin reigning over His Kingdom, and there will be ONE general resurrection - the resurrection of the unjust or of the damned - at the Great White Throne Judgment, just prior to the Messiah turning over His Empire to the Father. Those are the resurrections that Paul spoke about in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 24, respectively. It's not that difficult to understand; it's just that some people CAN'T bring themselves to admit they were wrong.

No. The primary resurrection is made up of those described thus:

"So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name."

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The 2nd resurrection is not of the dammed only.

"And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

This is a BIG 'if'. On the contingency a name is 'not found' they are thrown in the lake of fire. This obviously means names will be found and is apparently the norm, and the name that doesn't appear is the anomaly. Maybe I just hope more are granted entrance to heaven than not at this time. I don't really know the percentages, but I have hope most are saved here.

Matt 25:31-46 speaks of the same time of judgement as Rev 20 but in richer detail. It's clear this scene of judgment is one of individuals separated from one another into sheep and goats, not nations. Nations are not 'autos'.

From the acts of the righteous alone we see these are acts of love given to those in need, the little ones. This is what will be recorded in the books that are opened in Rev 20, "And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books"

Further, the dead are judged according to their deeds here, " And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books" exactly as depicted in Matt 25:31-46.

So no, the 2nd resurrection is not a resurrection of the dammed only, both the righteous and the dead are in the 2nd resurrection, some to life, some to death; as Daniel said in chapter 12, "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt." and in the same resurrection, and at the same judgement as shown in Matt 25 and Rev 20.

Retrobyter · June 26, 2024

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's a general definition outside the context. The context is the return of Jesus and the gathering. The group so gathered up are not defined here except by 'those that are Christ's at His coming'. To more fully understand just who these people are one would have to look for the gathering after it has happened. Fortunately we have just such a view in Rev 7.

In Rev 7 we see the group defined by the answer to the questions, Who? and When? I Thess does not answer these tow questions specifically, where Rev 7 does. That Who? and When? are those that came out from within the great tribulation. Indeed, these are clearly Christ's and well defined by from whence the come and what they have done.

By contrast, I see no where in scripture a very large group numbering in the 10s of billions, presumably, that were taken up from the grave and plucked alive from the earth, from all time from Adam to the 2nd advent, standing about the throne having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

Shalom, Diaste.

That's because you don't WANT to find such a number; that would CONTRADICT what you are trying to teach! So, I don't believe you're trying very hard to find "a very large group numbering in the 10s of billions, presumably, that were taken up from the grave and plucked alive from the earth, from all time from Adam to the 2nd advent."

AND YET, they are THERE!

Revelation 7:9-12 (KJV)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation (Rescue) to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying,

"Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever! Amen!"

How is it that they are "CLOTHED with white robes and palms in their HANDS?" How can they "STAND before the throne?" How can they "CRY with a loud VOICE?" These are people who have been RESURRECTED!

As far as them "coming out of great tribulation," well, that's all dependent upon what you believe the "great tribulation" is! If you're still thinking its just a 7-year time period, or even worse, a 3.5-year period, or even shorter, then you (along with many others) have the WRONG IDEA about what the "great tribulation" is!

Matthew 24:9 says this in the King James Version:

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

And, Matthew 24:29 says,

Matthew 24:29 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Here's the Greek of both:

24:9 τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς καὶ ἔσεσθεμισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου

24:29 Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων ὁ ἥλιοςσκοτισθήσεται καὶ ἡ σελήνη οὐ δώσει τὸ φέγγος αὐτῆς καὶ οἱ ἀστέρεςπεσοῦνται ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν σαλευθήσονται

NOTICE that both verses have the word "θλῖψιν" or "thlipsin" which means "tribulation!"

Verse 9 literally means word-for-word, "then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation," and the word "ὑμᾶς" or "humas" means "you (plural)," referring to the men to whom Yeeshuwa` was talking right at that moment!

I submit that the "great tribulation" is "great" because it has been going on for nearly TWO THOUSAND YEARS and began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D!

There is a third mention of "thlipsis" (the accusative being "thipsin"):

Matthew 24:20-22 (KJV)

20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation (Greek: θλῖψις μεγάλη = "thlipsis megalee" = "tribulation great" or "pressure massive"), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

This happened in 66 A.D., a short time before the siege of Jerusalem began when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. The disciples, being forewarned by both this discourse, and by an angel at the time, fled to Pella on the opposite side of the Jordan River.

Therefore, the "great tribulation" began in the First Century A.D. and is STILL GOING ON TODAY!!! The days (of pressure within the 2,000-year period) were indeed shortened; so much so that we can now give labels to various conflagrations within that period, such as the "Roman persecutions," the "Inquisitions," the "Crusades," the "Pogroms" in Russia, the expellings of the Jews from nation after nation within Europe, the Anti-Semitism throughout Europe and Asia, the Holocaust, and all the terrorist movements against them since! However, in between these events, the Jews would be given some measure of peace ... for a while, but then the days of tribulation would start up again.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

In Rev 7 the origin of the group is clearly defined and it is from a specific time period sandwiched in between the A of D and the 2nd advent. In fact, there are two other witnesses, in Rev 15 and Rev 20, that specify this group on the sea of glass and living and reigning with Jesus are from a narrow window on the time/space continuum.

So the group in Rev 7 is not from all time.

Where is the group of billions from all time pictured in heaven about the throne?

Why does it have to be "in heaven?" Yeeshuwa` is promised the "throne of his father DAVID!" He is promised to "reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER!" He is promised that "His Kingdom WOULD NEVER END!"

Do you so neglect the unfulfilled prophecies in the Tanakh (the O.T.)?!

Here's just a SMALL sampling:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit (be twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men (as at the crucifixion): 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Psalm 89:20-47 (KJV)

20 "I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him (this makes Him a "Maashiyach" or "Messiah"): 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me,

"'Thou [art] my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation'

27 "Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed (Yeeshuwa`) also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven (of the skies). 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed (Yeeshuwa`) shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven (in the skies)." Selah.

Zechariah 10:1-12 (KJV)

1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; [so] the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. 2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because [there was] no shepherd.

3 "Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the GOATS: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his FLOCK the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. 4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together. 5 And they shall be as mighty [men], which tread down [their enemies] in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD [is] with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded. 6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save (rescue) the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I [am] the LORD their God, and will hear them.

7 "And [they of] Ephraim shall be like a mighty [man], and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see [it], and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. 8 I will hiss (whistle) for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. 9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. 10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and [place] shall not be found for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away. 12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name," saith the LORD.

Isaiah 19:19-25 (KJV)

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a SAVIOUR (Yeeshuwa`), and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform [it]. 22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal [it]: and they shall return [even] to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, [even] a blessing in the midst of the land: 25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed [be] Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance."

If one's theology and eschatology in particular doesn't incorporate all these prophecies, then it is more than likely that they are of the "spirit of Anti-Christ," "an attitude against the Messiah reigning."

NConly · June 26, 2024

22 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

To be brief, the way I see it, O.T. saints looked forward to the cross as we look back at it. The Gospel and the Age of Grace were yet future; they were under the Law.

Abraham: Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The standard for Salvation and eternal life has not changed from the O.T. to the N.T. As the Kinsmen Redeemer, the righteous O.T. saints are covered by Jesus's blood.

Righteousness is having faith and believing in the right standing before God.

Believed: Faith, faithfulness, trust. Not worshiping other god’s or idols, but the God of Israel, believing what the prophets and patriarchs preached.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I do not believe that the standard changed between covenants. We now have our own access to the throne to communicate with God, through our mediator and advocate, Christ Jesus our Lord.

I read all I could find on Kinsmen Redeemer, I found only help in getting out of trouble in an earthly manner. Not one verse says Kinsmen Redeemer can help with ones Salvation.

you posted the below

{The standard for Salvation and eternal life has not changed from the O.T. to the N.T.}

The old Law was not meant for Salvation ever from the beginning Jesus was to come.

That is why He said over and over go to the Jew first.

(Gal 2: 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.)

Retrobyter · June 28, 2024

On 6/26/2024 at 5:54 AM, Diaste said:

Matt 27

"When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

Many were raised with Jesus.

Shalom, @Diaste.

Yes, but this was a different caliber of resurrection. This was merely bringing the bodies back to life, but NOT transforming them to be like HIS glorified body!

These people, although raised from the dead, would only have to die again. Paul later IN THE SAME CHAPTER talks about how we shall be raised like Him!

1 Corinthians 15:39-49 (KJV)

39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] ...
one [kind of] flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
[and] another of birds.

40 [There are] also celestial bodies,
and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and
the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
41 [There is] one glory of the sun,
and another glory of the moon,
and another glory of the stars:
for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = a-body air-breathing),
and there is a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = a-body air-blasting).

45 And so it is written,

"The (first man) Adam was made a living soul (breathing-creature)"; (Gen. 2:7)
the last Adam [was made] a quickening (life-giving) spirit (blowing-wind).

46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man [is] of the earth (out of-the land), earthy (made of dust):
the second man [is] the Lord from heaven (out of-the sky).

48 As [is] the earthy (the-one made-of-dust), such [are] they also that are earthy:
and as [is] the heavenly (the-one made-of-'above-the-sky') , such [are] they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image (likeness) of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image (likeness) of the heavenly.

These that were resurrected (AT HIS DEATH, btw, NOT His resurrection) were each a "sooma psuchikon," an "air-breathing body" again. When we are resurrected and transformed, we will each become a "sooma pneumatikon," an "air-blasting (like the wind) body!" It will be a much stronger body, not just "breathing" but "blowing!" We won't just have a "healthy glow" and be "warm" radiating infrared light; we will SHINE with VISIBLE LIGHT! We won't decay any longer, and we will be IMMORTAL, never able to die again, as we see later:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on INCORRUPTION, and this mortal [must] put on IMMORTALITY. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8)

55 "O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14)

56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

On 6/26/2024 at 5:54 AM, Diaste said:

No. The primary resurrection is made up of those described thus:

"So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"Great Tribulation" is NOT just a short period of time, like 7 years or 3-1/2 years! It's been almost 2,000 YEARS already!

On 6/26/2024 at 5:54 AM, Diaste said:

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name."

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The 2nd resurrection is not of the dammed only.

"And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

This is a BIG 'if'. On the contingency a name is 'not found' they are thrown in the lake of fire. This obviously means names will be found and is apparently the norm, and the name that doesn't appear is the anomaly. Maybe I just hope more are granted entrance to heaven than not at this time. I don't really know the percentages, but I have hope most are saved here.

I think you are forgetting the TIME ELEMENT. There will be a THOUSAND YEARS in the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign, and there will be children born during that time period. Also, some of those within His Kingdom will be the "tares" - the "children of the wicked one." There will be a mix of humans, both air-breathing and air-blasting individuals, and some of these will be just (justified by God) and some will be unjust.

Yes, there will be those who stand before the White Throne who will be found within the Book of Life, but those who belong to the Messiah at His Coming a thousand years earlier will have already been resurrected. HOWEVER, the ones who are UNJUST are the ones who will be judged, found guilty, and THROWN into the Lake of Fire at that time, the time of the Great White Throne judgment.

His Second Coming is a THOUSAND YEARS EARLIER than the GWTJ. How one can determine that is (1) by who is present when He is taking back His Land (compare the prophecies of the TANAKH, the OT), and (2) when He grows His Kingdom - His Empire - to include ALL the nations of the world!

While we get the "chilia etee" (the "thousand years") from Revelation 20, it is not the ONLY place we see this. We also have Peter's words in 2 Peter 3. I usually truncate this passage to only verses 3 through 13, but here, it would be good to see Peter's reasoning surrounding the passage I usually quote:

2 Peter 3:1-18 (KJV)

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by THE HOLY PROPHETS, and of THE COMMANDMENT OF US THE APOSTLES of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they WILLINGLY are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

This is the world described in Genesis 1 as the world before the Flood of Noach's day. It is the expanse of gases ("beaten thin") that separated "the waters which were below the expanse" from "the waters which were above the expanse" called the "heavens," the Hebrew word "shaamayim," which is a dual word meaning "the skies," the atmosphere of this planet; and the dry ground of this planet called "earth," the Hebrew word "'erets," which is also translated as "land," particularly when used to describe the "Land" that God gave to the children of Israel.

When created, the dry ground was raised ABOVE the waters below the expanse ("standing out of the water"). This suggests the natural understandings that "water flows downhill" and "water seeks its own level." And, because of the formation of "the waters which were above the expanse," the earth was also BELOW the waters which were above the expanse ("and in the water").

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This IS the Flood of Noach's day, and it was by those waters, both below and above, that the dry ground was flooded with water. And, because there was no longer any "dry ground," all the people and land animals - "the world that then was" - "perished!" They DIED!

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

There was an evangelist, Dr. Herbert J. Pugmire, who first put me onto this, and I looked it up for myself:

"There are writings of a Moroccan Berber Muslim scholar and traveller by the name of Ibn Batuta (actually 'Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Al Lawati Al Tanji Ibn Battuta') in the 1300s that claim that the pyramids were created PRIOR to the Flood. In fact, the Egyptian people used to call the Great Pyramid of Giza, “Enoch’s Pillar.” He said that Enoch (Chanokh), the 'seventh from Adam,' heard prophecy from Adam about two judgments that were to come, one of water and one of fire. They built two such pillars, one of stone and one of brick, in which to house the wisdom and knowledge of the ancestors. If the one out of brick did not survive, the ancestors anticipated that the one out of stone would survive the Flood."

So, there was not only a FLOOD, but there will also be a FIRE, allegedly predicted by our progenitor, Adam!

This "day of judgment and perdition (sentencing) of ungodly men" IS the Great White Throne Judgment! of Revelation 20!

But, Peter also gave us a word of encouragement:

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY [IS] WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.

This is the time period that comes BEFORE that day of judgment and perdition! It is both a THOUSAND YEARS (Greek: "χίλια ἔτη" = "chilia etee," same as in every verse of Revelation 20:1-7)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And, Peter gave us a word of warning:

10 BUT the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (the skies) shall pass away (pass by) with a great (loud) noise, and the elements (orderly arranged parts) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (the dry ground) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is the new sky and the new earth of Revelation 21 and 22. The matter of the earth and its atmosphere is not destroyed, the atoms and molecules are merely rearranged, like the wax figure of Abraham Lincoln was melted in the heat yesterday! When heat is added to a solid, it becomes a liquid - it MELTS - and if the heat is great enough, it becomes a gas, it EVAPORATES! So, none of the molecules and atoms are lost, and they are re-formed into the New Sky and the New Earth, after the Fire. And, it doesn't have to be the "whole planet" (as I've heard some preachers declare); it just has to be the SURFACE of the planet - the "dry ground" called "earth." It's also not the "whole universe"; it's only the "expanse" called "the skies" that "passes by with a loud noise!"

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation (rescue; deliverance); even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

On 6/26/2024 at 5:54 AM, Diaste said:

Matt 25:31-46 speaks of the same time of judgement as Rev 20 but in richer detail. It's clear this scene of judgment is one of individuals separated from one another into sheep and goats, not nations. Nations are not 'autos'.

Matthew 25:31-46 does NOT speak of the same time as the Judgment in Revelation 20! Regarding the word "autos" (which is the singular pronoun of the second person), it's the word "autous" that is used, a PLURAL pronoun! Let's look at it closer, if you wish. What verse contains this "autos" to which you're referring?

The passage is about the SAME THING as happens in Joel 3:

Joel 3:1-14 (KJV)

1 "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them (Hebrew: וְנִשְׁפַּטְתִּי = "vnishpaTtiy" = "and-I-will-JUDGE-them") there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

The word "vnishpaTtiy" is based on the word "שָׁפַט" or "shaafaT" which means,

H8199 שָׁפַט shâphaṭ, shaw-fat'; a primitive root; to judge, i.e. pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extension, to govern; passively, to litigate (literally or figuratively):
— avenge, × that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge(-ment), × needs, plead, reason, rule.

He will VINDICATE, STAND UP FOR His people! He will LITIGATE, DEFEND, PLEAD ON BEHALF of His people! And, He shall GOVERN, RULE over the judgment!

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon (Lebanon), and all the coasts of Palestine (the Gaza Strip)? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly [and] speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border!

7 "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken [it]!"

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, 'I [am] strong.' 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about":

"thither (there) cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD!"

12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness [is] great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of [the LORD'S] decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision!"

This is not the final Judgment; this is a WAR TRIBUNAL!!! After He has come to power and after He has fought with His enemies at Har Megiddown ("Armageddon"), HE WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR DAMAGES! What else would one expect from a VICTOR who is a "greater than Solomon?!"

On 6/26/2024 at 5:54 AM, Diaste said:

From the acts of the righteous alone we see these are acts of love given to those in need, the little ones. This is what will be recorded in the books that are opened in Rev 20, "And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books"

Further, the dead are judged according to their deeds here, " And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books" exactly as depicted in Matt 25:31-46.

So no, the 2nd resurrection is not a resurrection of the dammed only, both the righteous and the dead are in the 2nd resurrection, some to life, some to death; as Daniel said in chapter 12, "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt." and in the same resurrection, and at the same judgement as shown in Matt 25 and Rev 20.

Believe it or not, I rather AGREE with you on the nature of the final Judgment; HOWEVER, Matthew 25:31-46 is NOT IT! It is talking about the WAR TRIBUNAL that the Messiah will hold with the winners and losers of the war at Har Megiddown!

Diaste · June 29, 2024

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, but this was a different caliber of resurrection. This was merely bringing the bodies back to life, but NOT transforming them to be like HIS glorified body!

But we don't know this. All we know is the graves were opened and they appeared to people in the city, nothing about their state of existence. I have asked the question previously about what happened to them; did they live out their lives and die again, were they taken to heaven at some point? The silence is deafening.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

These people, although raised from the dead, would only have to die again. Paul later IN THE SAME CHAPTER talks about how we shall be raised like Him!

If Paul tells of the nature of resurrection, why would that not apply to all the resurrected? It applies to the ones so transformed when Jesus comes, it applies to the 2nd resurrection, to Jesus, Enoch and Elijah must have been transformed. I can think of a couple examples where this may not have applied: Tabitha[raised by Peter], Lazarus[inconclusive] and, Hebrews 11, "Women received back their dead, raised to life again".

I think it hinges on who is the conduit for the resurrection as well as the context and purpose.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Great Tribulation" is NOT just a short period of time, like 7 years or 3-1/2 years! It's been almost 2,000 YEARS already!

GT must be sandwiched between the A of D and the return of Jesus, to wit:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)...

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

The A of D is the starting gun, as it were. The end of GT, the promise of 'cut short', is:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven

The only known A of D occurred in 167 BC. Jesus wasn't talking about that one since it is history from the 1st century, that would make him an historian, not a prophet. Ergo, this is a future A of D and on that has not yet occurred since Jesus spoke the words.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I think you are forgetting the TIME ELEMENT. There will be a THOUSAND YEARS in the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign, and there will be children born during that time period.

No. I'm pointing out the description of the group so pictured in heaven from Rev 7, Rev 15, and Rev 20. The elements, context, and attributes of this resurrected and translated group are on full display for all to see: out from within GT, conquered the beast, were beheaded, did not worship the beast, did not take the mark.

If the gathering happened today, barring the dead in Christ, there would be a huge group resurrected, not having gone through GT, and most stunningly, not having faced the beast, which is a required attribute per Rev 15 and 20. Apart from the group that came out of GT, conquered the beast, withstanding the pressure of the mark and forced worship, there is no other group depicted numbering in the billions originating from a 2000 year period. That is an omission that shines as bright a light on the issue as extant facts.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, there will be those who stand before the White Throne who will be found within the Book of Life, but those who belong to the Messiah at His Coming a thousand years earlier will have already been resurrected. HOWEVER, the ones who are UNJUST are the ones who will be judged, found guilty, and THROWN into the Lake of Fire at that time, the time of the Great White Throne judgment.

Impressive. Many can't admit to that due to what I assume is a natural desire for bloodthirsty vengeance.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 25:31-46 does NOT speak of the same time as the Judgment in Revelation 20! Regarding the word "autos" (which is the singular pronoun of the second person), it's the word "autous" that is used, a PLURAL pronoun! Let's look at it closer, if you wish. What verse contains this "autos" to which you're referring?

Yeah it's plural. It's a lot of individuals.

Jesus states:

He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Your idea looks like a composition error. Nations are composed of people, nations are not individuals. It also seems to be a category mistake as you apply attributes from individuals to the whole, or attributes of the leadership to the population.

Jesus tells us that we all answer individually. My sin is mine and not applied to anyone else. 36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”"

This is not a group but each individual in turn

Nations do not:

For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

The above is in the context of person to person.

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is not the final Judgment; this is a WAR TRIBUNAL!!! After He has come to power and after He has fought with His enemies at Har Megiddown ("Armageddon"), HE WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR DAMAGES! What else would one expect from a VICTOR who is a "greater than Solomon?!"

Convincing, but the time element is missing. I have long heard from the dispensational crowd this is a bema seat judgement, or some such. It isn't.

Not one thing in all scripture has any bearing on there being two judgements, one immediately upon arrival and the other 1000 years later. In reality there is no one alive for such a tribunal to occur according to Zechariah and Zephaniah and Rev 14.

Jesus doesn't prosecute legal formalities, He prosecutes wrath, vengeance, and destruction on the enemy. The beast and the FP are thrown in the pit summarily. Satan is bound, summarily, the rebels are all destroyed. There is not even a hint of a tribunal in all scripture for Satan, the beast and the FP, nor the rebels who followed them.

Retrobyter · June 30, 2024

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

But we don't know this. All we know is the graves were opened and they appeared to people in the city, nothing about their state of existence. I have asked the question previously about what happened to them; did they live out their lives and die again, were they taken to heaven at some point? The silence is deafening.

Shalom, Diaste.

Well, this is where Paul comes to our rescue. He gave us this in the Resurrection chapter, 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here's the Greek:

15:20-23 Νυνὶ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐγήγερται ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἐγένετο. Ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι᾽ ἀνθρώπου ὁ θάνατος καὶ δι᾽ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν. Ὥσπερ γὰρ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ πάντες ἀποθνῄσκουσιν οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται. Ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι· ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα οἱ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

Transliterated, this is ...

15:20-23 Nuni de Christos egeegertai ek nekroon aparchee toon kekoimeemenoon egeneto. Epeidee gar di' anthroopou ho thanatos kai di' anthroopou anastasis nekroon. Hoosper gar en too Adam pantes apothneeskousin houtoos kai en too Christoo pantes zoo-opoieetheesontai. Hekastos de en too idioo tagmati; aparchee Christos epeita hoi Christou en tee parousia autou.

Translated into English word-for-word, this is ...

15:20-23 Now but Messiah is-risen (perfect passive indicative verb, for 3rd-person, SINGULAR) from dead-[ones] firstfruits (nominative, SINGULAR, feminine) of-the ones-that-slept becoming (second aorist verb, middle deponent indicative, for 3rd-person, SINGULAR). Since for through a-man (genitive, SINGULAR, masculine noun) the death also through a-man (genitive, SINGULAR, masculine noun) resurrection of-dead-ones. Like/as for in the Adam all from-to-be-dead so also in the Messiah all shall-be-made-alive. Everyone but in the his-own order; firstfruits (nominative, SINGULAR, feminine) Messiah afterward the-ones of-the-Messiah in the arrival of-Him.

He is the ONLY ONE who is included in the "order" called here "the firstfruits," which is a SINGULAR NOUN with SINGULAR VERBS!

Now, pay attention to the order and the timing of events:

Matthew 27:50-53 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It was the commotion AT HIS DEATH that ripped the veil in the Temple, caused the earthquake, tore the rocks apart, opened the graves, and caused the bodies of the saints to arise from the dead!

Then, AFTER HIS RESURRECTION ON THE THIRD DAY, the resurrected came out of their graves and went into the holy city, Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

Thus, these people came back to life BEFORE the Messiah rose from the dead! But, HE is the "firstfruits" (singular)!

I believe it was the release of His miraculous power at His death that raised them from the dead, but this resurrection is of the same caliber as the resurrection of Lazarus, who could - and would have to - die again. Only Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God was raised in a new kind of body that would never die again. He ALONE was the "firstfruits!"

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

If Paul tells of the nature of resurrection, why would that not apply to all the resurrected?

It's because Yeeshuwa` alone was raised to life AT HIS RESURRECTION three days and three nights later, never to die again. The others raised to life AT HIS DEATH were raised by a Man who hadn't been transformed, yet!

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

It applies to the ones so transformed when Jesus comes, it applies to the 2nd resurrection, to Jesus, Enoch and Elijah must have been transformed. I can think of a couple examples where this may not have applied: Tabitha [raised by Peter], Lazarus [inconclusive] and, Hebrews 11, "Women received back their dead, raised to life again".

Well, this is a dilemma. The fact is WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT happened to Chanokh ("Enoch") and 'Eliyahuw ("Elijah"). Most ASSUME that they went off, body and all, to "Heaven." But, that assumption just asks MORE questions than it answers.

However, the resurrections you mention are also resurrections that were made by others who weren't yet transformed. They, too, only came back to life until they lived a while longer, perhaps a full life, succumbing to death again.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think it hinges on who is the conduit for the resurrection as well as the context and purpose.

Precisely. That is why it was necessary for the Messiah to die and be raised to life; so that he might be "the FIRSTBORN among many brethren!" (Romans 8:29).

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

GT must be sandwiched between the A of D and the return of Jesus, to wit:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)...

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

The A of D is the starting gun, as it were. The end of GT, the promise of 'cut short', is:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven

The only known A of D occurred in 167 BC. Jesus wasn't talking about that one since it is history from the 1st century, that would make him an historian, not a prophet. Ergo, this is a future A of D and on that has not yet occurred since Jesus spoke the words.

Nope, you're running things together. Here, you are wrong.

The "abomination of desolation" was when the "desolation" was the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. The "abomination" prior to that was the presence of the Gentiles and their banner - the eagle of the Roman legion - standing in the Temple, where it should NOT have been! This happened in 66 A.D. prior to its destruction. It was the signal that Yeeshuwa` said to anticipate.

When it happened, Titus was called away from the invasion for a time, and they also received an angelic visitation that warned them it was time to flee, and they DID flee, and reassembled in Pella, a small town on the east of the Jordan River, north of Jerusalem. Google "Pella" and catch up on the history most churches have FAILED to pass on to future generations!

This was the future from the perspective of the Olivet Discourse, which is now OUR past.

Try this: Instead of saying, "a great tribulation," say rather, "a huge pressure," for that is what the words mean. And, it WAS (and still IS) a "huge pressure" put upon the Jews since the First Century A.D! It's been going on for almost 2,000 years now!

The days of pressure were "cut short" in that they were lessened for a time within that time period, giving them lulls in the pressure in which they could regroup and recover. Thus, the Jews were not wiped out in those two thousand years that followed. Now, they've come back to their Land, only their success is INCOMPLETE! They do NOT yet have their Temple, and the Gentiles are STILL overrunning the Land! The Messiah will fix all this when He returns, but FIRST they must WELCOME HIM BACK!

When Yeeshuwa` was born, the Magi - the "wise men" - from the East, came to bend the knee to the One born "King of the Jews." When it was time, Yeeshuwa` spent 3-1/2 years offering that Kingdom to the Jews with many proofs by YHWH God that He was indeed their Messiah - their "Anointed" to be King, but the elders of Judah would not accept Him as their King. Instead, they CRUCIFIED HIM, nailing Him to a tree to die!

YHWH GOD turned that around and made His Son a "Sacrifice for sin." Prior to His death and in anticipation of His death, His Son PRONOUNCED them "DESOLATE," rescinding that offer until they can welcome Him back (Matthew 23:38-39), to partially fulfill Gabriel's prophecy to Daniel in Daniel 9:27. Forty years later, the Temple was destroyed. The things decided to be poured upon the "DESOLATE" have been poured upon them ever since!

That Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was to be the King of Judah - the King of the Jews - and then the King of all Israel was the governing theme throughout the New Testament! It is also at the heart of the book of Revelation. The crux of the book is Revelation 11, when the seventh trumpet - the last trumpet - is sounded.

But, YOU ARE RIGHT when you said, "GT must be sandwiched between the A of D and the return of Jesus"! The "tribulation" IS INDEED sandwiched between 66 A.D. and the return of the Messiah!

And, when the Messiah has returned, He will once again offer the Kingdom to the Jews for another 3-1/2 years, at which time they will accept Him as their King. After that, He will whistle for the return of the rest of the children of Israel and set up banners where they may assemble to be taken home to the Land of Israel.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. I'm pointing out the description of the group so pictured in heaven from Rev 7, Rev 15, and Rev 20. The elements, context, and attributes of this resurrected and translated group are on full display for all to see: out from within GT, conquered the beast, were beheaded, did not worship the beast, did not take the mark.

There are contextual clues throughout the book of Revelation that tell the reader that these were NOT in "Heaven" but upon the earth - upon the GROUND! While those in the Beast's kingdom will be beheaded, they are NOT the only ones who will be resurrected! Yeeshuwa` SHALL have His Kingdom on this earth! And, to help Him govern the nations that He shall subdue, He will install kings in their nations and cities, and He Himself shall be the "King of kings!" An emperor over those kings.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

If the gathering happened today, barring the dead in Christ, there would be a huge group resurrected, not having gone through GT, and most stunningly, not having faced the beast, which is a required attribute per Rev 15 and 20. Apart from the group that came out of GT, conquered the beast, withstanding the pressure of the mark and forced worship, there is no other group depicted numbering in the billions originating from a 2000 year period. That is an omission that shines as bright a light on the issue as extant facts.

Impressive. Many can't admit to that due to what I assume is a natural desire for bloodthirsty vengeance.

Yeah it's plural. It's a lot of individuals.

Jesus states:

He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Your idea looks like a composition error. Nations are composed of people, nations are not individuals. It also seems to be a category mistake as you apply attributes from individuals to the whole, or attributes of the leadership to the population.

Nope. If you'll check out Matthew 25:32, you will find that the words in Greek are "πάντα τὰ ἔθνη" or "panta ta ethnee" = "all of-the nations." Thus, the translation should be "He will separate all of the nations one from another." I suppose one could use the word "people" IF one first added an "s" at the end of the word "people" - "all the PEOPLES one from another."

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Jesus tells us that we all answer individually. My sin is mine and not applied to anyone else. 36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”"

This is not a group but each individual in turn

Nations do not:

For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

The above is in the context of person to person.

Convincing, but the time element is missing. I have long heard from the dispensational crowd this is a bema seat judgement, or some such. It isn't.

Not one thing in all scripture has any bearing on there being two judgements, one immediately upon arrival and the other 1000 years later. In reality there is no one alive for such a tribunal to occur according to Zechariah and Zephaniah and Rev 14.

Jesus doesn't prosecute legal formalities, He prosecutes wrath, vengeance, and destruction on the enemy. The beast and the FP are thrown in the pit summarily. Satan is bound, summarily, the rebels are all destroyed. There is not even a hint of a tribunal in all scripture for Satan, the beast and the FP, nor the rebels who followed them.

No, He was saying "if you treat just ONE of my brothers in this way, you've treated ME this way!" Anti-Semitism runs rampant today and Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God will judge a NATION based upon how they treated His people!

One must give up his or her preconceived notions about what the Scriptures say, and LISTEN TO WHAT IS SAID! When one gets the right perspective, the Scriptures will all make sense.

Retrobyter · July 2, 2024

On 6/26/2024 at 7:26 PM, NConly said:

I read all I could find on Kinsmen Redeemer, I found only help in getting out of trouble in an earthly manner. Not one verse says Kinsmen Redeemer can help with ones Salvation.

Shalom, NConly.

Remember: When it comes to our relationship with God, the correct word is "justification," not "salvation," and specifically, that is "justification by God!" One cannot neglect the use of the word "salvation" to the RESCUE of God's people, the children of Israel, that was promised to them by a number of prophets in the Tanakh.

There IS an earthly Kingdom over which the Messiah Yeeshuwa` will reign on His Father's behalf. We don't "fly off to Heaven"; we've got a JOB to do right here in His Kingdom upon this earth!

On 6/26/2024 at 7:26 PM, NConly said:

you posted the below

{The standard for Salvation and eternal life has not changed from the O.T. to the N.T.}

The old Law was not meant for Salvation ever from the beginning Jesus was to come.

That is why He said over and over go to the Jew first.

Yes, and that is because He is their MESSIAH, their ANOINTED ONE TO BE KING! As David was Judah's king for a little over 7 years, so the ULTIMATE MESSIAH was to be Judah's King for 7 years and then become the King of Israel.

On 6/26/2024 at 7:26 PM, NConly said:

(Gal 2: 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.)

Right! See how "justification" is the correct word? "Salvation" is about God's RESCUE of the children of Israel from evil and from Israel's enemies. David KNEW this truth and taught this to the children of Israel in his psalms!

Psalm 32:1-11 (KJV)

1 [[[A Psalm] of David, Maschil.]]

Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered. 2 Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile. 3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him. 7 Thou [art] my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. 9 Be ye not as the horse, [or] as the mule, [which] have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee. 10 Many sorrows [shall be] to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about. 11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all [ye that are] upright in heart.

And,

Psalm 51:1-19 (KJV)

1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]]

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin [is] ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.

13 [Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: [and] my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 THEN shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

"Salvation" = "RESCUE."
"Justification by God" = a "Right Relationship with God."

There's no such thing as "Once Saved, Always Saved," although it is true that when God has rescued His people through His Messiah, they will remain rescued and in their own Land.

However, there truly is "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God!" Think about it: When GOD has done the justification of an individual, it is all GOD'S work! It's nothing that we have "done!" All we do is come humbly to Him and beg His mercy:

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he [Yeeshuwa` or "Jesus"] spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee (one who was a Separatist, who keeps all the Law of God), and the other a publican (a lying, thieving Tax-Collector for Rome, hated by all as a traitor to his people). 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for EVERY ONE THAT EXALTETH HIMSELF SHALL BE ABASED; AND HE THAT HUMBLETH HIMSELF SHALL BE EXALTED."

The publican came to God in the Temple - a house for prayer - publicly, within the eyesight of this Pharisee and anyone else who was there. He had to humble himself to do that, and He begged God to be merciful to him.

God will reward such an individual by stepping in and doing for that man that which the man knows he cannot do for himself.

Boaz was a kinsmen redeemer. He essentially bought Ruth (supporting Naomi in the process) to raise up seed for Naomi's sons and her husband, by taking her to himself as his bride. And, she gave birth to Obed, who became the father of Jesse, who gave birth to David, who became God's Choice - God's Anointed - to be Israel's King!

Ruth 4:1-22 (KJV)

1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said,

"Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here."

And he turned aside, and sat down. 2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said,

"Sit ye down here."

And they sat down. 3 And he said unto the kinsman,

"Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which [was] our brother Elimelech's: 4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying,

"'Buy [it] before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people.' If thou wilt redeem [it], redeem [it]: but if thou wilt not redeem [it, then] tell me, that I may know': for [there is] none to redeem [it] beside thee; and I [am] after thee."

And he said,

"I will redeem [it]."

5 Then said Boaz,

"What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy [it] also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance."

6 And the kinsman said,

"I cannot redeem [it] for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance: redeem thou my right to thyself; for I cannot redeem [it]."

7 Now this [was the manner] in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave [it] to his neighbour: and this [was] a testimony in Israel. 8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz,

"Buy [it] for thee." So he drew off his shoe.

9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and [unto] all the people,

"Ye [are] witnesses this day, that I have bought all that [was] Elimelech's, and all that [was] Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi. 10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye [are] witnesses this day."

11 And all the people that [were] in the gate, and the elders, said,

"[We are] witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem: 12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman."

13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. 14 And the women said unto Naomi,

"Blessed [be] the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel. 15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of [thy] life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him."

16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it. 17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying,

"There is a son born to Naomi!"; and they called his name Obed: he [is] the father of Jesse, the father of David.

18 Now these [are] the generations of Pharez:
Pharez begat Hezron,
19 And Hezron begat Ram,
and Ram begat Amminadab,
20 And Amminadab begat Nahshon,
and Nahshon begat Salmon,
21 And Salmon begat Boaz,
and Boaz begat Obed,
22 And Obed begat Jesse,
and Jesse begat David.

THIS is a "kinsmen redeemer!"

Edited July 2, 2024 by Retrobyter
to fix a misspelling

Retrobyter · July 2, 2024

On 6/29/2024 at 7:01 AM, Diaste said:

...

Shalom, again, Diaste.

I feel I might have left you hanging on how you responded to what I said,

"This is not the final Judgment; this is a WAR TRIBUNAL!!! After He has come to power and after He has fought with His enemies at Har Megiddown ("Armageddon"), HE WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR DAMAGES! What else would one expect from a VICTOR who is a 'greater than Solomon'?!"

On 6/29/2024 at 7:01 AM, Diaste said:

Yeah it's plural. It's a lot of individuals.

Jesus states:

He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Your idea looks like a composition error. Nations are composed of people, nations are not individuals. It also seems to be a category mistake as you apply attributes from individuals to the whole, or attributes of the leadership to the population.

Jesus tells us that we all answer individually. My sin is mine and not applied to anyone else. 36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”"

This is not a group but each individual in turn

Nations do not:

For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

The above is in the context of person to person.

Convincing, but the time element is missing. I have long heard from the dispensational crowd this is a bema seat judgement, or some such. It isn't.

I agree! This is NOT the "beema seat judgment!" However, it is also NOT the FINAL judgment at the Great White Throne when all are resurrected to stand trial.

First, we must understand the NATURE of the King of Israel: It's the JOB of a King to be the SUPREME COURT JUSTICE of the Land! He judges in all matters of dispute, if a lesser judge cannot make the determination. Consider Shlomoh's (Solomon's) reign:

(Remember: Shlomoh is "the Anointed One of the LORD" at that time; so, I will use red lettering for his words.)

1 Kings 3:16-28 (KJV)

16 Then came there two women, [that were] harlots (prostitutes), unto the king (Solomon), and stood before him. 17 And the one woman said,

"O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house. 18 And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we [were] together; [there was] no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house. 19 And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it. 20 And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom. 21 And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear."

22 And the other woman said,

"Nay; but the living [is] my son, and the dead [is] thy son!"

And this said,

"No; but the dead [is] thy son, and the living [is] my son!"

Thus they spake before the king. 23 Then said the king,

"The one saith, 'This [is] my son that liveth, and thy son [is] the dead': and the other saith, 'Nay; but thy son [is] the dead, and my son [is] the living.'"

24 And the king said,

"Bring me a sword."

And they brought a sword before the king. 25 And the king said,

"Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other."

26 Then spake the woman whose the living child [was] unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said,

"O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it!"

But the other said,

"Let it be neither mine nor thine, [but] divide [it]!"

27 Then the king answered and said,

"Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she [is] the mother thereof."

28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God [was] in him, to do judgment.

This is but ONE example of what the King, who is given wisdom from God, can do! And, we have "a greater than Solomon" in the Messiah Yeeshuwa`!

Luke 11:29-32 (KJV)

29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he (Yeeshuwa` or "Jesus") began to say,

"This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. 30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

31 "The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.

32 "The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here."

We also read this, and these proverbs are related to each other,

Proverbs 25:1-12 (KJV)

1 These [are] also proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out.

2 "[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter."

3 "The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings [is] unsearchable."

4 "Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer. 5 Take away the wicked [from] before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness."

6 "Put not forth (Exalt not) thyself in the presence of the king, and stand not in the place of great [men]: 7 For better [it is] that it be said unto thee, 'Come up hither'; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen."

8 "Go not forth hastily to strive, lest [thou know not] what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame. 9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour [himself]; and discover not a secret to another: 10 Lest he that heareth [it] put thee to shame, and thine infamy turn not away."

11 "A word fitly spoken [is like] apples of gold in pictures of silver. 12 [As] an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, [so is] a wise reprover upon an obedient ear."

On 6/29/2024 at 7:01 AM, Diaste said:

Not one thing in all scripture has any bearing on there being two judgements, one immediately upon arrival and the other 1000 years later. In reality there is no one alive for such a tribunal to occur according to Zechariah and Zephaniah and Rev 14.

And, just as many - and more - prophecies say that the Messiah shall reign from Jerusalem and shall reign over all the earth!

Again, what you are not considering is that it is the JOB of a King of Israel! The WHOLE, FIRST-ONE-THOUSAND-YEAR PERIOD OF THE INFINITE REIGN OF THE MESSIAH UPON THE EARTH WILL BE A TIME FOR JUDGMENTS! It is the TIME for reconciliation and reparation and retribution! It will be the TIME for all wrongs to be made right!

Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:1-11 (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle (tent) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

(Note: He did not say that we go there to live in this building of God.)

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is FROM heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle (tent) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (THE RESURRECTION!) 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit.

6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] IN [HIS] BODY, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore THE TERROR OF THE LORD (Yeeshuwa`), we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This doesn't happen "in Heaven"; it happens RIGHT HERE ON EARTH AFTER the Resurrection, DURING the Millennium! If one belongs to the Messiah, then anything he or she has done to another, good or bad, will be revealed at that time, and the Messiah of God will judge and make it right! He will rectify EVERY EVIL DONE TO ANOTHER! This is the NATURE of what it means for Yeeshuwa` to be THE CHRIST - HO CHRISTOS - HAMAASHIYACH - THE MESSIAH - THE ANOINTED ONE of YHWH God!

On 6/29/2024 at 7:01 AM, Diaste said:

Jesus doesn't prosecute legal formalities, He prosecutes wrath, vengeance, and destruction on the enemy. The beast and the FP are thrown in the pit summarily. Satan is bound, summarily, the rebels are all destroyed. There is not even a hint of a tribunal in all scripture for Satan, the beast and the FP, nor the rebels who followed them.

Yes, He SHALL "prosecute legal formalities!" He shall "JUDGE THE EARTH!"

Isaiah 11:1-10 (KJV)

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign (a flag; a banner) of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

We read this about what Yeeshuwa` said,

John 5:18-30 (KJV)

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Two general resurrections) 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. ..."

Retrobyter · July 3, 2024

Shalom to all.

This may seem harsh to many Christians who believe that all of their sins are under the blood, but does God's forgiveness of sin remove the consequences of that sin? I don't believe that it does, although there was a time that I was taught that way.

I was taught that God forgives our sin and "remembers it no more." That it is cast into the deepest sea, and then the New Earth has "NO MORE SEA!" That He casts them as far as the east is from the west, and on a globe how far east can you go? How fare west can you go? Thus, this is an INFINITE distance!

However, if we've committed a grievous sin against another believer, what will God do to rectify the consequences?

I think about the Levites that went astray in the years before the deportation to Bavel ("Babylon"). When YHWH God brings back the Levitical service, those priests will not be allowed to serve as they did before because they had gone after false gods. This is found in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 44:10-16 (KJV)

10 "And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, WHICH WENT ASTRAY AWAY FROM ME AFTER THEIR IDOLS; they shall even bear their iniquity. 11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, [having] charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them. 12 Because THEY MINISTERED UNTO THEM BEFORE THEIR IDOLS, AND CAUSED THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL TO FALL INTO INIQUITY; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them," saith the Lord GOD, "and they shall bear their iniquity. 13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy [place]: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed. 14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

15 "But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, THAT KEPT THE CHARGE OF MY SANCTUARY WHEN THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL WENT ASTRAY FROM ME, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood," saith the Lord GOD: 16 "They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge."

Remember David's sin and the consequences of his actions:

2 Samuel 12:1-25 (KJV)

1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him,

"There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. 2 The rich [man] had exceeding many flocks and herds: 3 But the poor [man] had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.

4 "And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him."

5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan,

"[As] the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this [thing] shall surely die: 6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity!"

7 And Nathan said to David,

"Thou [art] the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,

"'I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if [that had been] too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 "'Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife [to be] thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10 "'Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.'"

11 "Thus saith the LORD,

"'Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst [it] secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.'"

13 And David said unto Nathan,

"I have sinned against the LORD."

And Nathan said unto David,

"The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also [that is] born unto thee shall surely die."

15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. 16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. 17 And the elders of his house arose, [and went] to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said,

"Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?"

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants,

"Is the child dead?"

And they said,

"He is dead."

20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed [himself], and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. 21 Then said his servants unto him,

"What thing [is] this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, [while it was] alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread!"

22 And he said,

"While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, 'Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name 'Solomon (שְׁלֹמֹה = "Shlomoh" = "Peace" from "shalom")': and the LORD loved him. 25 And he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name 'Jedidiah (יְדִידְיָהּ = "YdiydYaah" = "Beloved-of-YAH"),' because of the LORD (YHWH or "YAHUWH").

Remember (or learn this for the first time): It's not until Revelation 21 - AFTER the Millennium of Revelation 20 - that we read,

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain (Greek: πόνος = "ponos" = "toil; anguish"): for the former things are passed away."

This implies that DURING the Millennium - the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign, before He turns over the Empire to His Father - that there shall still be tears, death, sorrow, crying, and painful work. The "former things" do not pass away until the time of the New Earth and its New Sky.

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