MARK OF.......?

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Not yet thank God.

2Th 2:3  Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

It is inevitable. 

[WilliamL]

On 8/21/2024 at 2:51 AM, Diaste said:

But that's not all there is. 

...worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

...the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived. 

It seems that the mortal wound affected the beast, not just a part of it. I'm not thinking at the time of the end there is going to be a 7 blasphemous headed, ten horned, ten crowned creature walking around ruling the earth. This beast really has to be something seen since there is going to be an image made of the beast. 

I'm thinking what we see in the beasts 7 heads are the 7 kings mentioned in Rev 17:10. The ten horns and crowns are the 10 kings in Rev 17:12. The 7 heads are also 7 previous kings to which the beast belongs, some line of kings on earth that ruled in the past. 

The beast has the attributes of the kingdoms of Daniel's prophecies of the Babylonian, Persian and Greek empires: the lion, bear and leopard respectively. What I conclude we are being shown is that whomever this is, we are looking for an emperor the likes of Nebuchadnezzar, the Medo-Persian kings and Alexander and their empires, or we can possibly determine through that still existing line, who it might be. 

The mortal head wound then is to a man rising out of that origin as depicted and required by the prophecies of Daniel; the line of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and then the Diadochi. 

It's a man with the weight of history and the burden of prophecy on his existence.

"The mortal head wound then is to a man..."

While I agree with much of what you say in this post, for you to then state what I quote from you above is to provide a complete non sequitur. Nothing at all, other that the tradition of men, says that the Beast either is, or can possibly be, a man. Which I demonstrate in detail in my series of articles about the Beast. Beginning with these three:

68. The Beast Is Not a (Seven-Headed!) Man, Part 1

Explains why the Beast of Revelation 13 cannot be a man, and reveals who and what it really is. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2778-the-beast-is-not-a-seven-headed-man-part-1/

69. The Beast, Part 2: Its Seven Heads https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2779-the-beast-part-2-its-seven-heads/

70. The Beast, Part 3: Who IS the Beast? https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2780-the-beast-part-3-who-is-the-beast/

[Progressive Truth]

On 8/16/2024 at 7:58 AM, SACREDWARRIOR said:

For those who hold an interest in " END TIMES" (eschatology),

much speculation and interest has been devoted to...."THE MARK"

what it is, how it will be enforced, where it will be placed etc....

the real concern should be, understanding just WHO authorizes the mark to be created in the first place & WHY!!!!!

READ CAREFULLY the passages below..........GOD HIMSELF BRINGS THE DECEPTION AND GIVES THE BEAST THE POWER AND OR AUTHORITY... TO CARRY IT OUT.....NOW READ CAREFULLY, ON WHO & WHY!!!!

Sacredwarrior, 

I do agree that God will give Satan authority and power to reign on earth for a while for the following reasons:

God the Father only, having foreknowledge, predetermined the plan of salvation of which the tribulation plays a crucial part near it’s conclusion. Knowing Satan’s thoughts and actions the Father predetermined to use Satan and his  angels during the judgement of the living.  It is during the tribulation that those living just before Christ returns must be forced into a decision as to who they shall worship, God, or Satan, the man of lawlessness. Two thirds of the way into the tribulation after the gospel has stalled, and most have made a choice to accept it or not, God releases Satan and his angles from the spirit realm during the fifth trumpet, to appear on earth in human form.  Why?

God wants the living who have refused His offer of salvation to witness who it is they have chosen to worship up to that point in time. Many after witnessing Satan’s behavior and actions for several months will come to their senses and finally in the last hour when Satan implements his mark, they will then decide to worship Christ and refuse Satan’s mark, even knowing they won’t be able to buy or sell.  At the end of the trumpet judgements salvation closes, as all choices have been made.  There will be only two groups of people, the saints having the seal of God, and the wicked having Satan’s mark. The bowl judgements which is God’s wrath poured out in full strength falls on the wicked only. Jesus returns for the harvest of the saints of all time, dead and the living. The wicked dead remain asleep in their graves, the wicked living are destroyed by the command of Jesus upon His return and the birds have a great feast. The wicked from all time remain in their graves until the end of the millennial reign of Christ and the saints in heaven. They are raised for the Great White Throne Judgement in which they receive their sentence and face Jesus their judge and hear why He could not save them. Latter they are cast into hell and burned to ashes. God then creates the new heaven and earth as it was in the beginning. 

This is the short version of the story, and explains why the Father will give Satan power and authority for a short season. However, God has never, or will He ever put into the mind of Satan the evil he freely chooses too commit. Too believe that it is God who puts these evil deeds  into the mind of Satan, would be no different than suggesting that God put into the mind of Satan the deception that led to Adams fall in the beginning. 

Both assumptions are incorrect because they take away the right of Satan to exercise his free will to choose. I know of no place in the Bible were God has forced His will on any individual. He has given angles and man the right to exercise their free will. That right will continue throughout eternity, which opens up the possibility that someone could  choose to sin. If it does happen, do you understand how God will prevent it from spreading more that a day? (Another discussion)

 

[Dave Watchman]

18 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

At the end of the trumpet judgements salvation closes, as all choices have been made.  There will be only two groups of people, the saints having the seal of God, and the wicked having Satan’s mark. The bowl judgements which is God’s wrath poured out in full strength falls on the wicked only. Jesus returns for the harvest of the saints of all time, dead and the living. The wicked dead remain asleep in their graves, the wicked living are destroyed by the command of Jesus upon His return and the birds have a great feast. The wicked from all time remain in their graves until the end of the millennial reign of Christ and the saints in heaven. They are raised for the Great White Throne Judgement in which they receive their sentence and face Jesus their judge and hear why He could not save them. Latter they are cast into hell and burned to ashes.

I mostly agree with you here, and your note in the rapture thread. Although I tend to think salvation begins closing in stages before the trumpets and vials are all finished. 

It's basically the judgement of the living prior to Christ's Arrival, because when He appears, we will be like Him. It has to be completed before He gets here.

So I don't worry as much about the mark of the beast as maybe I should. I suspect we are already late in the trumpets and vials, where the frog like demons are already sent out to the kings of the earth to gather them for that great battle. As all the creatures in the sea of many nations and peoples and tongues are as dead as the dead who will eventually march across the broad plain of the earth.  

18 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

However, God has never, or will He ever put into the mind of Satan the evil he freely chooses too commit. Too believe that it is God who puts these evil deeds  into the mind of Satan, would be no different than suggesting that God put into the mind of Satan the deception that led to Adams fall in the beginning. 

Both assumptions are incorrect because they take away the right of Satan to exercise his free will to choose.

He has given angles and man the right to exercise their free will. That right will continue throughout eternity, which opens up the possibility that someone could  choose to sin. If it does happen, do you understand how God will prevent it from spreading more that a day?

I would have agreed more with this a couple years ago. No doubt God is dealing with the problem of sin. He is going to eradicate sin. 

18 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

I know of no place in the Bible were God has forced His will on any individual.

Maybe force is a strong word. He can also send them a strong delusion. But God's delusion is a strong force. So that they believe the lie. Not only them, but also those who approve and practice the lie.

I think we're already late into the trumpets and vials, where God has given them over to a reprobate mind. In a landscape where the censer is cast down, He puts an end to ALL sacrifices and offerings, and the night has finally come where in it no man can work. 

I think we're closer to the actual second coming than most realize. Just little babies are still being born. Woe to pregnant women. Some of those are our brothers and fellow servants.

[Progressive Truth]

21 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

Although I tend to think salvation begins closing in stages before the trumpets and vials are all finished. 

IN reality, salvation closes for individuals at death. But in this discussion we are referring to those still living. The feast of trumpets in the earthly sanctuary services, started 10 prior to the Day of Atonement, to warn the people of its coming. That service pointed to the seven trumpet judgement in Rev. 8, too, arose mankind out of their stupor, the time for salvation is coming to a close. Salvation does not extend into the bowl judgements/vials. 

21 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

So I don't worry as much about the mark of the beast as maybe I should. I suspect we are already late in the trumpets and vials,

Encourage you to consider the mark seriously, you might have to encounter it. 

You state, "In a landscape where the censer is cast down," You bring a up a good point. Here is why prophecy does not support the trumpets "have" opened.

Look at (Rev. 8:2-5) A chronological order of events is given.

Seven trumpets are given to seven angles

Another angel stands before the altar of incense

The angel fills it with incense and cast it to the earth

Then on earth there followed peals of thunder, flashes of lightning, followed by and earthquake.

Why do you suppose God tired the previous events to the events on earth? This is another of many in which this God has done this. Why? Because you and I and everyone else cannot see into heaven. However, by the mercy of God we can know what is going on in heaven when we come to realize this Heaven to earth linkage law. 

Too, you should understand that the events here on earth will happen too, in the chronological order given, and we are talking on a global scale, as all of mankind will get the heads up at the same time. That is, those who like the wise men of old, understand prophecy. Therefore, since the earth has never experienced these events on a global scale in the order given you as well as I can be confident that no trumpet has yet sounded. 

21 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

I think we're closer to the actual second coming than most realize.

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Progressive Truth
Better clarity

[Diaste]

On 8/22/2024 at 2:38 PM, WilliamL said:

"The mortal head wound then is to a man..."

While I agree with much of what you say in this post, for you to then state what I quote from you above is to provide a complete non sequitur. Nothing at all, other that the tradition of men, says that the Beast either is, or can possibly be, a man. Which I demonstrate in detail in my series of articles about the Beast. Beginning with these three:

68. The Beast Is Not a (Seven-Headed!) Man, Part 1

Explains why the Beast of Revelation 13 cannot be a man, and reveals who and what it really is. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2778-the-beast-is-not-a-seven-headed-man-part-1/

69. The Beast, Part 2: Its Seven Heads https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2779-the-beast-part-2-its-seven-heads/

70. The Beast, Part 3: Who IS the Beast? https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2780-the-beast-part-3-who-is-the-beast/

Read them. 

Also read this:

"Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. "

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle"

"The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, "

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

This all points to an individual. Whether that individual is a man empowered or possessed or both, it is an individual something that speaks, can enter a building, and can be captured and thrown into a fiery lake. 

So certainly there is a wide ranging power base on earth represented by the beast of Rev 13, but that one head wound is to one of the heads, heads that represent particular kings from Rev 17. 

I can see those heads as the kings of the prophecies of Daniel that ruled in the great kingdoms and subsequent to that, the Diadochi. Out of one of those 7 comes the '8th, of the 7'. 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Read them. 

Also read this:

"Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. "

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle"

"The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, "

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

This all points to an individual. Whether that individual is a man empowered or possessed or both, it is an individual something that speaks, can enter a building, and can be captured and thrown into a fiery lake. 

So certainly there is a wide ranging power base on earth represented by the beast of Rev 13, but that one head wound is to one of the heads, heads that represent particular kings from Rev 17. 

I can see those heads as the kings of the prophecies of Daniel that ruled in the great kingdoms and subsequent to that, the Diadochi. Out of one of those 7 comes the '8th, of the 7'. 

The dynamics of sovereignty has always equated king with kingdom. 

Military might, political agility, and media mastery are characteristics of regimes which regents provide hierarchical authority for.

A king without a kingdom is a king in name only.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

The first beast is a kingdom, and one of its heads is therefore a king, a man.

What is hidden from the public at large at this point in time is his kingship itself,
the fact that he is a king is kept secret now, but in times past the fact that he operated as a king, waging wars and making laws, was known to the general public.
And the history of such is not hidden.
The office of that king has been in place since before Revelation was written.
One day a person in that office will seem to be killed and then healed from death in a spectacular world changing way.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 8/27/2024 at 3:27 AM, Diaste said:

This all points to an individual. Whether that individual is a man empowered or possessed or both, it is an individual something that speaks, can enter a building, and can be captured and thrown into a fiery lake. 

Satan is an individual, he is not a man, and he "can enter a building, and can be captured and thrown into a fiery lake."

The same applies to the other fallen angels.

So your conclusion that the Beast must be a man is simply not proven by the texts you quoted.

But fallen spirits, like Satan, CAN have seven heads, whereas there never has been, nor ever will be, such a man!

[Diaste]

On 8/29/2024 at 1:32 PM, WilliamL said:

Satan is an individual, he is not a man, and he "can enter a building, and can be captured and thrown into a fiery lake."

True.

On 8/29/2024 at 1:32 PM, WilliamL said:

The same applies to the other fallen angels.

True.

On 8/29/2024 at 1:32 PM, WilliamL said:

So your conclusion that the Beast must be a man is simply not proven by the texts you quoted.

Well, the text shows what I mean. 

Satan's fate:

" 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, "

The fate of the beast:

"20But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

The difference:

"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown"

So here we have the beast cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before Satan is thrown into the LoF. Satan is locked in the abyss for 1000 years while the beast is cast into the LoF for eternity. Satan and the beast are not the same entity. 

On 8/29/2024 at 1:32 PM, WilliamL said:

But fallen spirits, like Satan, CAN have seven heads, whereas there never has been, nor ever will be, such a man!

Interesting speculation. As I said, I take Rev 13:1-2 as symbolism of the previous kings of the great empires: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Seleucid, all under the same banner of Satan. It's not a real beast, it's representative. The 7 heads are some 7 kings I have yet to find, of which the wounded head is a part. 

For example Rev 17:10. The 7 heads are also 7 kings.