Are We Mistaken In The Teaching Of The Pre-trib Rapture????

[BornAgain490]

4 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

John was of then but God lays out what He is revealing to us through John
Revelation 1:19 (KJV)

[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This is what God revealed and though John a member of time 'then' but was translated to future as a witness and He a part of the Church is taken up into Heaven and shown tribulation, millennium, eternal state ... and yes then returned to His time.
Actually, fulfilling the prophecy Jesus spoke of John:
John 21:21 (KJV)

[21] Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

[22] Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

[23] Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus did allow John to tarry till Jesus came and was shown all time to that of the eternal state...

 

 

John was not translated, he was in the Spirit, and he remained on Patmos the entire time he was in the Spirit seeing visions.  Enoch was translated body, soul and spirit.  Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5.  See the difference? 

[enoob57]

2 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

John was not translated, he was in the Spirit, and he remained on Patmos the entire time he was in the Spirit seeing visions.  Enoch was translated body, soul and spirit.  Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5.  See the difference? 

That is not what Scripture says: I do not go by thoughts or other opinions but what the Scripture itself says!

Revelation 4:1 (KJV)

[4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The simple grammatical reading of the rest of Revelation is John present in Heaven witnessing the things there in Heaven and on Earth... 

[BornAgain490]

10 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

God calls the time in question His wrath

Revelation 6:17 (KJV)

[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

and God says specifically about this time
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

clearly, we disagree and must agree to disagree...

 

 

Yes, Revelation 6:17 is speaking of God's wrath. But what precedes God's wrath?  Look at Revelation 6:1-13, in which the antichrist comes and begins tribulation and great tribulation, and then just before God pours out His wrath, cosmic and earthly disturbances take place just as Isaiah and Joel and Jesus prophesied would occur before God pours out His wrath. 

[enoob57]

2 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Yes, Revelation 6:17 is speaking of God's wrath.

good and God says the Church will not be there for it...
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

When I first post my  answer it was directly to the OP question

Quote

Are We Mistaken In The Teaching Of The Pre-trib Rapture??

I am satisfied with my stand upon what Scripture says and have given my reasons... Thanks for the discussion.
 

 

 

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, enoob57 said:

That is not what Scripture says: I do not go by thoughts or other opinions but what the Scripture itself says!

Revelation 4:1 (KJV)

[4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The simple grammatical reading of the rest of Revelation is John present in Heaven witnessing the things there in Heaven and on Earth... 

 

Read it again.  John is in the Spirit.

Ask yourself: where is John as Jesus is telling John what to write to the seven churches?  He's on Patmos.

Then john writes, "After this I looked", which means after Jesus spoke what to write to the churches, john is still on Patmos, still in the Spirit, and now writes that he sees visions of heaven from his place on Patmos.  

[BornAgain490]

6 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

good and God says the Church will not be there for it...
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

When I first post my  answer it was directly to the OP question

I am satisfied with my stand upon what Scripture says and have given my reasons... Thanks for the discussion.
 

 

 

 

God's wrath does not begin until after Satan and antichrists great tribulation, which is evident beginning in Rev 6:1. 

Be blessed. 

[JoeCanada]

On 8/30/2024 at 1:50 AM, Diaste said:

As far as I know, and I could be wrong, there is but one unforgivable sin; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I don't know what that is or how it's defined, but it's not taking the mark of the beast.

Yes, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit  is the one unforgivable sin.

But what exactly is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"?

We know from Scripture that the Spirit is Truth.

So when a person has a conscious and hardened opposition to the Truth of the Spirit, that person is rejecting Christ. Jesus said "I am the Truth"

The sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is essentially the sin of rejecting Christ.

Taking the mark of the beast is a persons witness to their willful rejection of Jesus.

They can't be tricked into accepting the mark. They will knowingly, consciously  and wilfully accept it.

So I see the mark of the beast and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as one and the same unforgivable sin. Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin.

[BornAgain490]

On 8/23/2024 at 3:23 AM, R. Hartono said:

Tell me why the wise virgins are taken but the foolish are left behind ? 

The principle of the parable of the 10 virgins is not about rapture, but about enduring in faith and readiness for coming of the Lord. "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of Man comes."  (Matthew 25:13).

[missmuffet]

Time will tell won't it? What is most important is that Christians are ready and that they have a saved belief in Jesus Christ.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Yes, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit  is the one unforgivable sin.

But what exactly is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"?

The best I can come up with for the definition and the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is from Mark 3 and Matt 12. In Matt 12 the Pharisees concluded, mocked really, the demon possessed blind mute Jesus healed as being healed by the power of the Prince of demons. Specifically, that Jesus drove out demons by the Prince of demons, which He shut down as antithetical. 

The Pharisees were also speaking against the healing power of the Spirit. In their arrogance and unbelief they incorrectly gave credit to Satan for the healing. 

I believe the example here is attributing the work of the Spirit, casting out the demons and healing the blindness and mutism, to the Prince of demons. 

As far as I know Matt 12 and Mark 3 are the only passages that speak to 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. Maybe you know of another passage of the which, I am not aware.

 

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

We know from Scripture that the Spirit is Truth.

So when a person has a conscious and hardened opposition to the Truth of the Spirit, that person is rejecting Christ. Jesus said "I am the Truth"

Sure. However Mark 3 and Matt 12 also say:

28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter.

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,

It would seem to me that blaspheming against Jesus is not the same as blasphemy against the Spirit. As an example, Paul had a very hardened and conscious opposition to Jesus, so much so that he was killing and imprisoning the followers of Jesus. Paul clearly rejected the truth of Jesus and the Spirit yet he was conscripted into the army of Christ all the same. 

 

 

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is essentially the sin of rejecting Christ.

Taking the mark of the beast is a persons witness to their willful rejection of Jesus.

I also think Rev 14:6-13 is a chance to repent of the misdeed of the mark of the beast, which mark would have been an initial rejection of Jesus. 

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

They can't be tricked into accepting the mark. They will knowingly, consciously  and wilfully accept it.

That's a fact. I hear a few people say it's Sunday worship, using currency, the RFID chip, even heard one person say if you have a job you have rejected Christ. Not kidding. 

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So I see the mark of the beast and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as one and the same unforgivable sin. Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin.