We need to love the murderer, rapist and mobster!

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Exactly. Look also at King David: took advantage of his power and authority for sex (constructive rape by intimidation), had his loyal military leader killed (murdered), and David is called a man after God's own heart. 1 Samuel 13:14. 

Exactly. The grace of God is never ending.

[BornAgain490]

8 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Exactly. The grace of God is never ending.

And His mercies renew every morning. Hallelujah 🙌 

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

Exactly. Look also at King David: took advantage of his power and authority for sex (constructive rape by intimidation), had his loyal military leader killed (murdered), and David is called a man after God's own heart. 1 Samuel 13:14. 

As you say, LOOK at King David.  The New Testament does call him by name as a man after God's own heart - meaning that his own sin disgusted him and he repented heavily every time.

BUT, BornAgain490 - 

David, his family, his children, his concubines, his warriors, and the entire nation paid a price for David's sins.

From the 13th chapter of 2 Samuel to the end of the book, chapter 24 - David and everyone under his kingdom paid consequence after consequence after consequence.  It isn't a pleasant read.  And then at the beginning of 1 Kings - David dies weak.

God did not pat David on the head and say, "I forgive you - just run along".

God,  in his mercy, forgave David, but the prices he paid were terrible.

We can't say God forgives and ignore the fact that God is just.

 

[BornAgain490]

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

As you say, LOOK at King David.  The New Testament does call him by name as a man after God's own heart - meaning that his own sin disgusted him and he repented heavily every time.

BUT, BornAgain490 - 

David, his family, his children, his concubines, his warriors, and the entire nation paid a price for David's sins.

From the 13th chapter of 2 Samuel to the end of the book, chapter 24 - David and everyone under his kingdom paid consequence after consequence after consequence.  It isn't a pleasant read.  And then at the beginning of 1 Kings - David dies weak.

God did not pat David on the head and say, "I forgive you - just run along".

God,  in his mercy, forgave David, but the prices he paid were terrible.

We can't say God forgives and ignore the fact that God is just.

 

There's a consequence for all of us for our own sins. How did our sin negatively affect those around us, even in the slightest way. Sometimes we know, as David knew, but other times we may never know the chain reaction we caused by our sin. 

[AnOrangeCat]

8 hours ago, Jayne said:

Sister, just because God forgives someone like you and me or forgives a serial murderer or serial rapist, does not mean that consequences here on this earth don't have to be paid.

This reminds me of my mother. She got into drugs and alcohol as a teenager and mellowed out on the drugs over time. The alcohol not so much. It was constant seesawing between drinking daily and going without as she went from job to jobless. Money dictated how much she'd consume, when she had money she'd drink herself sick and either miss work or get argumentative on the job and get fired.

She turned back to God near the end of her life. I'm not sure how deeply exactly but she always used to say things like "God is dealing with me about that, but I'm not there yet."

The end result of that lifestyle was a miserable death. So yes, consequences very much do need to be paid. As a little tangent, as Christians we're accustomed to the idea of God doing things on His own time. There's an element of truth to it, but I suspect in my mother's case and that of many others it's more of an excuse to continue in a particular behavior.

[warrior12]

As a civil society, there are rules that has to be obeyed or face the consequences.   Some people I believe, who commit grevious crimes are demon possessed and is controlled by wicked spiritual forces .   Many try to reform their ways, but keep falling back into the schemes that they are bounded by.   Yes, we have to have that compassion and love for those who are in those chains, which are really a terrible situation, however they came about.    Prayer and the meaningful help by those who sees it fit are most needed.

However , when crimes are committed by those, they still have to bear the burden of the judge .  Wherever they are then put, may give time for reflection and the various ministries that may minister to them.   

Those who have gone through those tough situations, that some may say, was their own choice and not accepting the strongholds they were under, and were then saved , their testimonies reveals truths of the spiritual world and as they now see the truths of scripture that reveals that world.   Ephesians 6 is a chapter that those who were in bondage can look to and see, yes the word is true and that world exist.

[Marathoner]

I disagree. If men and women were possessed by demons as some claim, then they would not be held accountable by the Lord for their works. Why, when the unclean spirit would be held accountable for the evil committed?

Not at all. Scripture establishes that the hearts of men are corrupt and evil, so no one else can be blamed for the works of an individual.

Edited September 23, 2024 by Marathoner

[ladypeartree]

I remember reading about a prison in the USA ( sorry cant remember where ) that houses some of the worst offenders but has been turned into a community that farms and have all turned to Christ . They are forgiven and lots of their victims have forgiven them but they know they will never leave that prison and accept that is the price of their sin and have found peace in it all 

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, ladypeartree said:

I remember reading about a prison in the USA ( sorry cant remember where ) that houses some of the worst offenders but has been turned into a community that farms and have all turned to Christ . They are forgiven and lots of their victims have forgiven them but they know they will never leave that prison and accept that is the price of their sin and have found peace in it all 

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up.  That's Angola.  In my state.

It does and has housed the worst of the worst.  Death row included.

When a new warden came along in the early 1980's, Burl Cain, he found them fighting and killing each other.

To make a long story short, he said that it was his belief that people with no moral nature do the things these men do.  He decided he needed to moralize the prison and he believed that the quickest way to do that was to bring Christianity to the prison.

Today, the men have lots of meaningful work to do.  Planting, growing, harvesting.  Do they like it?  Probably not on some hot days.  And they have vocational school where trades are learned.  A seminary.  Someone has to preach in those churches housed inside.  Lots of churches have services each day.  They have rodeos open to the  public, a radio station, and the majority are free to roam the premises.

There is a Malachi Club where inmates with children on the outside learn how to be as good a father as they can from the inside.  They don't want their sons and daughters becoming what they were.  Some learn leathercraft work.  They make Bible covers, belts, and more and are allowed to sell them.

It's a little city.

They are taught and given the best life possible in their circumstance.  Many men there say that they are not the same person.

Yet....

Most will not leave.  Being a Christian wipes out God's wrath, but not the natural consequences one must face.

Warden Cain once told the story that there was a man on death row and his time was coming.  The man had been saved and was a genuine Christian.  Warden Cain talked to him a lot before he was executed.  He asked him how he felt about it all now that he was saved and had been saved a while.

The man said it was the right thing to do - to carry out the sentence.  He knew he was saved, but he also knew and was afraid that he might kill again.  He was content to go to God.  He asked for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for his last meal.

Warden Cain took the bread, peanut butter, and jelly himself and between the two of them, they made and ate four sandwiches.  Warden Cain keeps the half eaten jars in his office so as to not forget that man nor forget his mission at Angola.

Most of these men aren't getting out.  They don't NEED to be let out.  Some have sentences of 30-40 years and might get out.  Some never will.

But the compassion of Warden Cain has transformed the place and their lives.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2024 by Jayne

[warrior12]

Men can deny people being demon possessed , but scripture clearly describes Jesus casting out the Legion of demons from a man.  As written in scripture. Who is responsible for what is of the judge, but these are spiritual matters, that those who have not witness the truths of what takes place in the extremes of the spiritual realm , would not understand or see those truths.

Mark 5   clearly shows, a man possessed by so many demons that he had to be chained.  How he got those demons is another question, but those demons certainly can manipulate the mind and body.   These discussions, I know from experience cannot be relatable to those who have not been through the trauma and most of the time the undescribeable things that takes place .   

To each his own on his beliefs and thoughts on these matters.   There are hundred of thousands of people in mental institutions that have very disturbed minds and the specalist have no cure for them , but crutches in medication to ease their agony.