Faith vs. Saving Faith

[AnOrangeCat]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have heard R. C. Sproul explain it this way when someone was concerned and questioned him about saving faith. He asked the person about his love and the two greatest commandments:

1. Do you love Jesus perfectly? His answer was no.
2. Do you love Jesus as much as you should? Again, his answer was no.
3. Well, do you at least love Jesus a little? His answer was affirmative.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James' example above, does this man possess saving faith, or is he lazy, useless, or a closet Christian?

I have two primary thoughts on this. One, the answers were honest and broadly applicable to all of us. There's always room for improvement. We could always do better. Jesus spoke favorably of a tax collector who displayed humility before God so he's off to a good start.

Second, I feel that there's missing context. We know about this person's belief. But how does this belief impact his day to day life? The honesty and humility are, like I said, a start. But is he someone who just feels sorry for his sin and wallows in it, or is there effort to keep the two great commandments and change? That's vital information.

[AnOrangeCat]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

To the point: I think it is obvious there are different levels and stages of faith. We are to aspire to grow. Some people have more faith and trust in Jesus than others. Would you agree? All who ask the Lord for forgiveness and Salvation are given a measure of faith. I interpret James and Paul as saying that we are each given different levels of faith and knowledge. It is what we do with what is given to us.

Completely agreed here. The parable of the talents supports this notion, and it seems there are also differing levels of accountability found in the same parable. James also pointed out that those who teach are held to higher standards, and understandably so.

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

How about the closet Christian with faith the size of a mustard seed who did no work for the kingdom of Jesus? Is that saving faith?

James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [Can you have one without the other? I submit no.]

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is saving faith conditional with true repentance, change of heart, lifestyle, and attitude?

I feel like there is some requirement of sincerity. We're works in progress and bound to make mistakes, but I believe the effort is important. The Bible points out that if we love God we'll keep His commandments, which is in line with the great commandments Jesus cited. But again, looking at differing levels of accountability, I believe 100% that God takes our conditions into account. Someone in a wheelchair probably isn't expected to run around proclaiming the Gospel door to door.

Going back to the mustard seed Christian who does no work, I'd argue that we do more work than we realize. Our lives are a testimony, and as Paul pointed out we're the body of Christ and serve a variety of different roles. For some the parts they play may well be internal things (for lack of a better term) such as organizational duties, finance, or enabling those who are more external to do their thing. It may not occur to people but someone who does so much as babysit so someone else can go door to door or do some of the more obvious things we think of as Christian works is playing a part in that work. Very few of us are so isolated as to have done literally nothing.

To address the verse in I Corinthians the way I see that one is that it's not about doing nothing so much as it is doing works with an ulterior motive at heart. For when people who might overall be walking the walk let pride, concerns for status and material gain creep in and corrupt the works they do.

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Begs the question (From me anyway) if one thinks and declares they have perfect discernment regarding their own faith already, how do they then grow further in their own faith? 

How does that work?

We are always growing in our faith. Staying obedient to God in this world is a challenge.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

The Bible tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and Jesus reminded us that we should fear God as He can destroy us body and soul if He chooses. Ideally we move on from fear and into a relationship of love, realizing that God isn't out to get us and actually does love us, but I think for some they never move on.

We pretty much see eye-to-eye on everything. Without citing lexicons or word studies, I see two aspects of “the fear of the Lord.” Naturally, we should fear Him because of His omnipotent power and might and depend on Him for our very existence. It is wisdom to hear what He says and do it.

The other aspect is reverencing and honoring, much like our earthly father as an example. Generally speaking, our human father, as his growing child, wants the best for us and is the disciplinarian and punisher of our wrongdoing. We revere his undisputed power, position, and dependence over us.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Dennis

Wonderful Topic and great questions..... the Answers vary but not so much that thry are points of controversy or anything to debate-I think the different perspectives serve to give us all food for thought

I'm not so sure about anyone having different " amounts " of Faith that would equate to Great or Little and not as much " What " one Believes but rather " Who" and yes,there are probably what one can refer to as " Levels" of Faith but I don't Believe the graduation onto higher " levels" lead to that Saving Faith we are discussing .... and I will try to explain

First we must talk about that Measure of Faith mentioned here and taken from Roman's Chapter 12.... our Faith is not what Saves us ,it is the Grace of God that Does - through our Belief in Christ,with a repentant heart we are Accepting His Knock on the door to our Heart.... and THEN the Measure of FAITH is Bestowed just as we Receive the Living Word of God OR how many folks think all are Given thst Measure of Faith?

Well,who is the audience for the Book of Romans,who are these people? They are likely well educated Believers living in Rome,practicing their Faith within a pagan environment - they were both Jew and Gentile- thry are being Reminded that they're Faith is not what Saved them but through Christ Jesus by Grace they were Saved.... now,with Christ Abiding in them,having His Heart and Mind they are also equipped by the Power of Holy Spirit with a God Given Measure of Faith to Endurd all things,Overcome and obstacles to have a Unified ,Peaceful effective and Productive Body- that the Roman church( & all future Missions) would grow,spreading the Gospel further & further

Yes,even the demons " believe" but the Word of God is Revealed by the Spirit,Revelation is DIVINE Intervention- demons do not Receive Eyes of Understanding- they know Who God the Son is - they know nothing about remorse,repentance,sincerity or submission - they are a spirit of pride,,only with a spirit of humility can one Receive God's Grace....

Am I off Topic? You see,too often I hear" Oh Kwik,I cannot do this & that,I do not have (as MUCH) Faith as you do.....if they are Saved they're Given the Same Measure as I- no more,no less ..... but what kind of Faith do they possess....is it the kind to do ALL things in Christ thst Strengthens us ? The Faith we are taught is the Substance of all things Hope for,the Evidence of things not seen( Hebrews 11:1) - that is the basis of our Faith,that has several elements ... Believing His Promises,Believing/Receiving,Speaking with Power & Authority(His) and Works of Faith( the Action.....

So what is "Saving" Faith.... the Faith that Jesus IS Who He Says He IS - because by a Miraculous SUPERNATURAL Act of God through surrendering your heart,mind and soul to Him you RECEIVE..... just like Saul on the road to Damascus,a Pharisee bound by the Law,knew not Jesus but heard of a " blasphemer" he thought killed and dead....Jesus Cslled,Paul Heard and Paul Received- & the Measure of Faith was Given Him.... He Understand only one thing- Jesus is the Way,the Truth and the Life Who Loved Him in spite of Himself

Paul Accepted and we Know what Paul's Faith Produced,the Works to the Glory of God

I think I'm rambling....I'm in such a State of Praise and Worship this morning that it's actually difficult to focus of a Study or theme- forgive me but it's a very Joyous and uplifting Topic-just like it was Encouraging to Believers in the Book of Roman's

Praise Jesus!

With love in Christ,Kwik

[Cntrysner]

Paul’s conversion is the pattern (1Tim 1:16) for us that follow the ascended Christ. 

1Ti 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 
1Ti 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 

1Ti 1:12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 
1Ti 1:13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

We are saved by grace which is God’s mercy and it is a gift from God (Eph 2 8:9). Our faith, our will, or our desire to be saved is not what initiates God’s mercy, it is quite the contrary. Saul the greatest sinner received mercy while He was in unbelief and on the road to Damascus to persecute the saints, it is God’s choosing and His calling by His power that initiates salvation so that God receives all the glory (1Tim 1: 14-17). There was nothing worthy in Saul’s spirit, soul, or body yet was enabled and deemed faithful, and received Christ’s unconditional love, which is irresistible grace.  
 

Edited November 11, 2024 by Cntrysner

[farouk]

3 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Dennis

Wonderful Topic and great questions..... the Answers vary but not so much that thry are points of controversy or anything to debate-I think the different perspectives serve to give us all food for thought

I'm not so sure about anyone having different " amounts " of Faith that would equate to Great or Little and not as much " What " one Believes but rather " Who" and yes,there are probably what one can refer to as " Levels" of Faith but I don't Believe the graduation onto higher " levels" lead to that Saving Faith we are discussing .... and I will try to explain

First we must talk about that Measure of Faith mentioned here and taken from Roman's Chapter 12.... our Faith is not what Saves us ,it is the Grace of God that Does - through our Belief in Christ,with a repentant heart we are Accepting His Knock on the door to our Heart.... and THEN the Measure of FAITH is Bestowed just as we Receive the Living Word of God OR how many folks think all are Given thst Measure of Faith?

Well,who is the audience for the Book of Romans,who are these people? They are likely well educated Believers living in Rome,practicing their Faith within a pagan environment - they were both Jew and Gentile- thry are being Reminded that they're Faith is not what Saved them but through Christ Jesus by Grace they were Saved.... now,with Christ Abiding in them,having His Heart and Mind they are also equipped by the Power of Holy Spirit with a God Given Measure of Faith to Endurd all things,Overcome and obstacles to have a Unified ,Peaceful effective and Productive Body- that the Roman church( & all future Missions) would grow,spreading the Gospel further & further

Yes,even the demons " believe" but the Word of God is Revealed by the Spirit,Revelation is DIVINE Intervention- demons do not Receive Eyes of Understanding- they know Who God the Son is - they know nothing about remorse,repentance,sincerity or submission - they are a spirit of pride,,only with a spirit of humility can one Receive God's Grace....

Am I off Topic? You see,too often I hear" Oh Kwik,I cannot do this & that,I do not have (as MUCH) Faith as you do.....if they are Saved they're Given the Same Measure as I- no more,no less ..... but what kind of Faith do they possess....is it the kind to do ALL things in Christ thst Strengthens us ? The Faith we are taught is the Substance of all things Hope for,the Evidence of things not seen( Hebrews 11:1) - that is the basis of our Faith,that has several elements ... Believing His Promises,Believing/Receiving,Speaking with Power & Authority(His) and Works of Faith( the Action.....

So what is "Saving" Faith.... the Faith that Jesus IS Who He Says He IS - because by a Miraculous SUPERNATURAL Act of God through surrendering your heart,mind and soul to Him you RECEIVE..... just like Saul on the road to Damascus,a Pharisee bound by the Law,knew not Jesus but heard of a " blasphemer" he thought killed and dead....Jesus Cslled,Paul Heard and Paul Received- & the Measure of Faith was Given Him.... He Understand only one thing- Jesus is the Way,the Truth and the Life Who Loved Him in spite of Himself

Paul Accepted and we Know what Paul's Faith Produced,the Works to the Glory of God

I think I'm rambling....I'm in such a State of Praise and Worship this morning that it's actually difficult to focus of a Study or theme- forgive me but it's a very Joyous and uplifting Topic-just like it was Encouraging to Believers in the Book of Roman's

Praise Jesus!

With love in Christ,Kwik

Hi @kwikphilly Philippians 2 says that 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

[kwikphilly]

1 minute ago, farouk said:

Hi @kwikphilly Philippians 2 says that 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

God Says it- I Believe Him!❤️Amen

[farouk]

7 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

God Says it- I Believe Him!❤️Amen

Hi @kwikphilly I'm reminded of James 1.21: "receive meekly the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls".

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Paul’s conversion is the pattern (1Tim 1:16) for us that follow the ascended Christ. 

1Ti 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 
1Ti 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 

1Ti 1:12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 
1Ti 1:13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

We are saved by grace which is God’s mercy and it is a gift from God (Eph 2 8:9). Our faith, our will, or our desire to be saved is not what initiates God’s mercy, it is quite the contrary. Saul the greatest sinner received mercy while He was in unbelief and on the road to Damascus to persecute the saints, it is God’s choosing and His calling by His power that initiates salvation so that God receives all the glory (1Tim 1: 14-17). There was nothing worthy in Saul’s spirit, soul, or body yet was enabled and deemed faithful, and received Christ’s unconditional love, which is irresistible grace.  
 

Amen- exactly the point!

And let's not forget Abraham- counted as Righteous becsuse He Believed God

It's such a simple,humble response to God's Call .... isn't it? Much akin to someone bearing a present wrapped with a Gift inside- Accepting thst Gift is not an effort or a work- the Giver Has it,wrapped it,brought it,offered it and puts it in the hands of acceptance

Oh,what to say except " Thank You Lord"