Wrath v Great Tribulation

[The Light]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

No.  The great tribulation is over when Jesus returns in Revelation 19:20-Revelation 20:1-3 actions.

The 7th seal was opened by Jesus in Revelation 8.    Revelation 8 reveals that there will be 7 trumpet plagues.      Those 7 trumpet plagues take place during the great tribulation.

 

   

 

 

Doug, you need to apply some common sense and simple logic. By the below scriptures you should be able to conclude that Jesus returns at the 6th seal. We have the signs of the sun, moon and stars marking that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Jesus returns for a harvest. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Revelation 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Use common sense. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal...........then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. TRIBULATION IS NOT WRATH.

If you have the trumpets of wrath occurring during the tribulation, you are in error. Wake up and use common sense and logic. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds...............seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Summary................Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.............THEN.........the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. TRIBULATION IS ALREADY OVER.

It's right there in front of you. I don't know how to make it any clearer. The scripture speaks for itself. Get out of the way.

[douggg]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

By the below scriptures you should be able to conclude that Jesus returns at the 6th seal. We have the signs of the sun, moon and stars marking that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal

You quoted...

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

I agree that Matthew 24:30b (in red) is the day of Jesus's return.    1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup.

However, what you are not getting is that Matthew 24:29-30a (in blue) is the sign of the Son of men in heaven.    The sixth seal.    1290 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup.

The sixth seal takes place 45 days before Jesus's return.     During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus, his coming evident by the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by douggg

[The Light]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

I agree that Matthew 24:30b (in red) is the day of Jesus's return. 

The return of Jesus is NOT when He stands on the Mount of Olives after Armageddon. The return of Jesus is when He comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. He remains in the clouds at this time.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The great multitude returns with Jesus to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. They are in heaven for the 1 year wrath of God.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

1 hour ago, douggg said:

 

   1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup.

However, what you are not getting is that Matthew 24:29-30a (in blue) is the sign of the Son of men in heaven.    The sixth seal.    1290 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup.

The sixth seal takes place 45 days before Jesus's return.     During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus, his coming evident by the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

The 7th seal wrath of God lasts 1 year and 5 months of it or 150 days men are being stung by the locusts.

Bottom line is you still have tribulation and Gods wrath happening in the same timeframe. From Matthew 24 and the 6th seal, we can tell that tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Until your charts reflect this FACT your charts will not agree with scripture.

[douggg]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

The return of Jesus is NOT when He stands on the Mount of Olives after Armageddon. The return of Jesus is when He comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. He remains in the clouds at this time.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The great multitude returns with Jesus to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. They are in heaven for the 1 year wrath of God.

The martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6 are not brought back to life until after Jesus returns.

In Revelation 7, it is their souls that are in heaven.

----------------------------

Jesus, appearing with a sickle in heaven, when He comes to earth, he will destroy those armies that have surrounded the city of Jerusalem, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19:21.

The armies packed into the rest of Israel, outside of Jerusalem, there will be angel, also given a sickle in Revelation 14:17-20, will destroy those armies.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

[douggg]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

The 7th seal wrath of God lasts 1 year and 5 months of it or 150 days men are being stung by the locusts.

Bottom line is you still have tribulation and Gods wrath happening in the same timeframe. From Matthew 24 and the 6th seal, we can tell that tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Until your charts reflect this FACT your charts will not agree with scripture.

The great tribulation is not over at the time of the sixth seal event appearance of Jesus in heaven.    The great tribulation is not over until Jesus returns to stand on the mount of olives, and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire, the armies of the world gathered to make war on Him, destroyed, and when Satan is cast into the bottomless pit. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6 are not brought back to life until after Jesus returns.

In Revelation 7, it is their souls that are in heaven.

No sir. The harvest has occurred, they have new bodies. When Jesus comes His reward is with Him.

2 hours ago, douggg said:

----------------------------

Jesus, appearing with a sickle in heaven, when He comes to earth, he will destroy those armies that have surrounded the city of Jerusalem, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19:21.

Jesus comes for the second harvest IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

Revelation 6

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We see the same coming of Jesus and wrath beginning in Revelation 14

Revelation 14

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The armies packed into the rest of Israel, outside of Jerusalem, there will be angel, also given a sickle in Revelation 14:17-20, will destroy those armies.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

But what you don't get is this does not happen until the 6th trumpet.........6th vial.......as both happen in the same timeframe of the 7th seal.

Revelation 19

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The great tribulation is not over at the time of the sixth seal event appearance of Jesus in heaven.    The great tribulation is not over until Jesus returns to stand on the mount of olives, and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire, the armies of the world gathered to make war on Him, destroyed, and when Satan is cast into the bottomless pit. 

Doug. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Look at the verses. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.........cosmic signs of the sun, mo0n and stars.

The sixth seal is opened.........cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

How is it that you cannot conclude that the tribulation is over and the 6th seal????????? 

How is it that you cannot conclude that the wrath of God has not begun?????????

Tribulation is not wrath.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Revelation 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[douggg]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Doug. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Look at the verses. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.........cosmic signs of the sun, mo0n and stars.

The verse, Matthew 24:29, does not say after the great tribulation of those days.

Most of the great tribulation has passed, but it is not over. 

You keep citing Matthew 24:29 as being the sixth seal event.   Yes Matthew 24:29 is the sixth seal event - except you are missing that the one big element of the sixth seal event is the sign of the Son of man in heaven of Matthew 24:30a.    The sixth seal event is Matthew 24:29-30a.

It is not until 45 days later that Jesus descends to earth and ends the great tribulation.

AoD setup:

then 1290 days to the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

then 45 days to Jesus coming in power and great glory, on the 1335th day.

----------------------------------------------------

Also, please stop with all the super large text.   I don't appreciate the yelling at me.    Use regular size text.    Bold and/or color highlight if you want to emphasis something in the text.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

I have to agree with @The Light

Jesus' own words, and we really don't have to look to anyone's else's ' in Matt 24:

"Immediately after ...... not during, not towards the end ...... but immediately after" 

Jesus is quite clear. 

The tribulation is over when He says ...."Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

And He gives us signs so that we can know that the tribulation is over.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky"

[JoeCanada]

34 minutes ago, douggg said:

It is not until 45 days later that Jesus descends to earth and ends the great tribulation.

Jesus does not descend to the earth when the tribulation is over.

He descends just above the ground ... in the clouds.... in the air ... where the resurrected and the raptured meet Him

It is at the battle of Armageddon that Jesus descends with the armies of heaven and touches the ground.

(there is actually another place before this that Jesus is on the ground, but that will take a bit of explaining.... for another post)