The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. But the timing presented is an order of events, not clock and calendar. An event occurs, then, and only then, do other events follow. This is order and timing limited to the succession of events, not time and date. 

Here is the order of events. The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served Baalpeor. Those of Israel will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will remove blindness from part of Israel and they will see Jesus is the Messiah. After the Church is raptured there is a need for first fruits of the second harvest, hence the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. Take off those goggles and see.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nah...there is no 'last trump' at the feast of trumps. The only last trump in all scripture associated with the coming of Jesus is the 7th trump. It is the last in a series of trumps at the end of the age and the herald of the gathering and the arrival of Jesus. 

There is no other. 

I missed the part where Paul explained what the last trump was. Did Paul write to the Churches and say that he was sorry for the confusion about the last trump. Did Paul say, "Don't worry John is going to have a Revelation about the last trump and he will fill you in." NO. The Jews all know what the last trump is.........it is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. You not understanding that, doesn't change a thing.

Secondly if you are waiting for that 7th trumpet to sound before the rapture, you have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are not appointed to wrath. Another unscriptural belief.

1 Thes 5

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

[The Light]

17 minutes ago, Keras said:

I have never seen any such proof in the Bible. 

The rapture to heaven theory is a lie and a delusion, we humans never leave the place we were made to inhabit. 

Regarding who is the true Israel, you seem to have missed the many Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise if the House of Judah. Only a remnant will survive to join with their Christian brethren. 

Romans 11. How much more their fullness.................

[EddieM]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

They entered the ark 7 days before the flood waters came. Is that right?

[The Light]

32 minutes ago, EddieM said:

They entered the ark 7 days before the flood waters came. Is that right?

I think they entered the ark on the 1st day of 7 and the animals were all loaded by the end of the first day.

However, what we don't know is when the door to the ark was closed and God shut them in.

32 minutes ago, EddieM said:

 

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by The Light

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is the order of events. The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served Baalpeor. Those of Israel will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will remove blindness from part of Israel and they will see Jesus is the Messiah. After the Church is raptured there is a need for first fruits of the second harvest, hence the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. Take off those goggles and see.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Shabbat shalom, @The Light.

I'm sorry, bro', but Hosea 9:10 is not about our future! He is talking about the "remnant" or those LEFT in Israel after their deportation to Assyria - the REST of Israel who were not taken captive.

Chuck Swindoll gives us this summary of Hosea:

Time period: Hosea's prophetic ministry took place during a difficult time in Israel's history, just before the northern kingdom was exiled. 

Kings: Hosea's ministry overlapped with the reigns of King Jeroboam II (787-747 BCE) and King Hoseah (731-722 BCE) [of the northern Kingdom of Israel]. 

Contemporary prophets: Hosea was a contemporary of the prophets Isaiah and Micah. 

Hosea was one of the first prophets to write down his prophecies. The Book of Hosea is a collection of his preaching and writing over about 25 years. It's almost entirely poetry and is considered one of the oldest books of the Tanakh. 

Hosea's message was closely linked to his personal life. He married a woman named Gomer, who symbolized Israel's unfaithfulness, and gave his children names that sent messages of judgment on Israel. The book of Hosea is intended to remind people that God is loving and loyal to his covenant people. 

Book of Hosea Overview - Insight for Living Ministries

In Hosea 1:1, the prophet identified the kings that ruled during his prophetic ministry. The first four—Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah—reigned over the southern kingdom of Judah from 790 BC to 686 BC, while Jeroboam II ruled the northern kingdom of Israel from 782 BC to 753 BC. This indicates that Hosea lived in the middle to late eighth century BC (755–715 BC), making him a contemporary of the prophets Isaiah and Micah.

Hosea directed the early portion of his prophetic warnings to Jeroboam II, a descendant of the house of Jehu whose son, Zechariah, would soon come to ruin (Hosea 1:4; 2 Kings 15:8–12). Because this prophecy against the descendants of Jeroboam involved the birth of Hosea’s children, we can conclude that he lived in the northern kingdom, where the names of his children would have had the greatest impact.

Chuck Swindoll

It's not a good practice to take a few words that seem like they're talking about the future and make them a part of one's eschatology.

Once in s while, one will find that a particular prophet will have a distant-future prophecy, but it wasn't that often. Most of the time, they were given prophecies that were for their particular, near-future events.

 

17 hours ago, The Light said:

I missed the part where Paul explained what the last trump was. Did Paul write to the Churches and say that he was sorry for the confusion about the last trump. Did Paul say, "Don't worry John is going to have a Revelation about the last trump and he will fill you in." NO. The Jews all know what the last trump is.........it is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. You not understanding that, doesn't change a thing.

Secondly if you are waiting for that 7th trumpet to sound before the rapture, you have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are not appointed to wrath. Another unscriptural belief.

1 Thes 5

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Going "THROUGH the time period containing the wrath" doesn't mean that one is susceptible TO the wrath. We will have our part while the Messiah is pouring out God's wrath upon a people. I believe that we will be "the Red Cross" for the people of the Messiah who have suffered at the hands of His enemies. We will have the same miraculous power to heal and raise from the dead as He gave His disciples during His FIRST Advent!

Matthew 10:1-8 (KJV)

1 And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying,

"'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

[abcdef]

On 11/17/2024 at 5:57 AM, Diaste said:

Point being the ones holding to such testimony and the word of God ARE the church. They are in Christ. They are the seed of Abraham. They originate from GT, not pretrib. 

This is why I spoke about defining terms and words.

The children of Israel were "called out" before the kingdom came on Pentecost. We who are in the gospel kingdom are also "called out", both are called out.

But there is a difference between those who are before the kingdom and those who are in the Pentecost kingdom.

The difference is that those in the Pentecost gospel kingdom have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. This difference is essential in determining prophecy.

Adam, Moses, and others did have the testimony of Jesus, but they were not  members of the Pentecost gospel Kingdom.

So when we discuss the "church", we need to define the meaning of the word as to which group we are centering on.

----

When someone would ask about the "church" after Rev 4, then we might say, "Are the members of the gospel kingdom which began on 33 AD Pentecost mentioned after Rev 4?"

In my opinion they are.

--

 Are members of the 33 AD gospel kingdom seen in heaven with John and Jesus at the time of the writing of the Revelation? No, they are not resurrected yet, they will be resurrected with us.

Those who were resurrected with Jesus are seen in heaven in 96 AD ish.

--

One reason that the kingdom is not recognized is that people are looking for a "church of gentiles" instead of a "flesh children of Israel gospel kingdom".

The Revelation is about the children of Israel both believing and unbelieving and not about the gentiles in the gospel Pentecost kingdom, although they seem to be mentioned in Rev 12:17. The woman was Israel before Jesus was born Rev 12:1-4, the flesh children of Israel flee into the wilderness of the gentile nations from Jerusalem, and then return after her time is finished.

This shows the flesh children of Israel, in the 33 AD Pentecost gospel kingdom, fleeing while the gentiles in the kingdom did not, mostly. 

 This division shows that the main theme of the Rev 12 story is about the believing flesh of Israel in the 33 AD kingdom.

----

In the 1st century context, this passage is a message to the flesh children of Israel in the kingdom. Jerusalem fell, how long would it be before it was under the control of Israel again?

The answer in not specific in the years of men, but is symbolic of the 70 AD-1967 time period of tribulation/trouble.

 

[The Light]

44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @The Light.

Thanks. It has been a peaceful Sabbath. Hope for you also.

 

44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm sorry, bro', but Hosea 9:10 is not about our future! He is talking about the "remnant" or those LEFT in Israel after their deportation to Assyria - the REST of Israel who were not taken captive.

Yes. He told the Jews that He saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest..........fig tree at her first time. However, they went to Baalpeor and would no longer be the first harvest. This is not a mystery. This is just straight scriptural fact.

The Jews (12 tribes) will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Chuck Swindoll

It's not a good practice to take a few words that seem like they're talking about the future and make them a part of one's eschatology.

Once in s while, one will find that a particular prophet will have a distant-future prophecy, but it wasn't that often. Most of the time, they were given prophecies that were for their particular, near-future events.

It's a shame that a man that appears to have spent a bunch of time in the Word of God could be so clueless. Hard to process.

44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Going "THROUGH the time period containing the wrath" doesn't mean that one is susceptible TO the wrath. We will have our part while the Messiah is pouring out God's wrath upon a people. I believe that we will be "the Red Cross" for the people of the Messiah who have suffered at the hands of His enemies. We will have the same miraculous power to heal and raise from the dead as He gave His disciples during His FIRST Advent!

 

Brother, neither the Church, nor the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will be on earth during the wrath of God.

The only ones on earth during the wrath of God will be the woman, those that have fled to a place of protection, the two witnesses, and unbelievers. (including Antichrist, fallen angels, etc)

 

 

[abcdef]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

In no way is that equivalent. If you can show when the A of D occurred as spoken by Jesus and referenced from 168 BC A of D committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, then you might have an argument.

Please consider that their is more than one Antichrist, more than one abomination and desolation.

Satan and all the gentile leaders who attacked Israel were at the least a type of an Antichrist. Jerusalem was sacked several times by gentile armies.

The Dan 9 timeline shows the desolation of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD. The context of Dan 9:24-27 is the coming of Jesus in 30-33 AD.

Titus and the Roman armies desolated the temple and Jerusalem 35 years after the Messiah came to the children of Israel and made the prophecy of the temple destruction and the reference to Dan 9.

The abomination of Antiochus was fulfilled centuries before Jesus was born. They fought with chariots and are not future, Dan 11:40.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

If that hasn't happened, then no; the GT has not yet happened.

The abomination of desolation of Dan 9 did happen in the 1st century.

The great trouble was from 70 Ad until 1967 when Jerusalem was restored.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

Not Rome.

The 4th beast of Dan 7 and the iron nation of Dan 2, are not Rome?

Rev 17:10 says that one head of the beast "is" during the time of John.

That can only be Rome.

Where is John and the head that "is" shown in the time of the Dan 2 statue?

It can only be during the time of the iron which is Rome.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

It's been considered. No alignment.

If the 2 witnesses are not in the 33 AD gospel Pentecost kingdom, then they cannot be saved and resurrected as righteous.

They are "called out" and are the children of Israel in the Pentecost kingdom.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

If that were true, where is the 1000 reign of Christ and the saints recorded in history?

Rev 20, The popular concept of the millennium is filled with assumptions and misconceptions.

Jesus rules the Pentecost gospel kingdom from heaven through the writings of the Law, Prophets, and the NT letters. They are in heaven, not on this planet.

Satan is the dragon (Rev 20:2) nation of Rome (7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12:3) that cannot destroy the children of Israel until they restore Jerusalem. That is the first thing that he does when he comes out of the abyss.

The timeline anchor is the first resurrection of Jesus in 33 AD. We are about to be part of the second resurrection, now that Jerusalem is restored.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

Then after that reign, a great city is supposed to be on earth

The great eternal city of Jerusalem is completely spiritual.

It is a living city of souls, on the living mountain of Jesus, with a living heaven of God the Father above.

This material heaven universe and earth fly away at the last judgment before death is destroyed.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

and the whole earth is supposed to be new. 

When did that happen?

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

No. How is it possible for the events of Revelation to be happening to John when he was recording the prophecy and the prophecy wasn't yet distributed? That would make it a secret prophecy. Does that make any sense? 

Rev 1:19, "Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things that shall be hereafter."

Where in the Revelation are the things that were? (Before 96 AD)

The things that are? (96 AD) The 7 congregations "are" in 96 ADish, but what things "are" after Rev 4?

The things hereafter (96 AD)

 

On 11/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, Diaste said:

What prophecy happens as it's being recorded? That isn't prophecy, it current events.

The 7 congregations were current events in 96 AD ish.

The 5 heads in Rev 17:10 were past to John.

The 6th head that "is" was current events.

The Revelation after ch 4 is past, present, and future to the 1st century.

The timelines do not all start in the future, to us.

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

Please consider that their is more than one Antichrist, more than one abomination and desolation.

There are.

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

Satan and all the gentile leaders who attacked Israel were at the least a type of an Antichrist. Jerusalem was sacked several times by gentile armies.

I can agree here, somewhat.

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

The Dan 9 timeline shows the desolation of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD. The context of Dan 9:24-27 is the coming of Jesus in 30-33 AD.

And where is the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah recorded?

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

Titus and the Roman armies desolated the temple and Jerusalem 35 years after the Messiah came to the children of Israel and made the prophecy of the temple destruction and the reference to Dan 9.

No A of D. 

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

The abomination of Antiochus was fulfilled centuries before Jesus was born. They fought with chariots and are not future, Dan 11:40.

Not the one Jesus prophesied. How can Jesus prophesy of the A of D in the first century and it was fulfilled in 168 BC?

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

The 4th beast of Dan 7 and the iron nation of Dan 2, are not Rome?

Rev 17:10 says that one head of the beast "is" during the time of John.

That can only be Rome.

Where is John and the head that "is" shown in the time of the Dan 2 statue?

It can only be during the time of the iron which is Rome.

No. The succession is Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Diadochi, then one from one for the Diadochi. Rome is never mentioned except by the dispensationalist doctrine.