The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, abcdef said:

Define the millennium kingdom.

The millennium kingdom began on the day of Pentecost in 33 AD.

Dan 9:24-27, doesn't mention it, but it is implied in the idea that the Messiah would be king and start the kingdom of Israel, which Jesus did.

Rev 19-22 describes the many attributes of the return of Jesus and His kingdom. None of which have happened.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

This I  agree with.

 It should be obvious that Rome was in power over the children of Israel at the time of Jesus. Where is that time in the Dan 2 statue?

Rome ruled over the children of Israel from 63 BC until 1967, where is that time in the statue of Dan 2?

Where are we now in the statue of Dan 2?

The Diodochi are attached to the Greece/brass part of the statue. The metal is iron after Greece domination ends.

 

Ruling over Israel is not biblical interpretive criteria.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

When your spirit leaves your body and this material world, we will all understand things better.

The Rev 21 & 22 passages are describing things that cannot be fully comprehended by souls in the material world.

They are communicated to us through things that we can relate to.

1 Pet 2:5, Says that we are living stones in a living temple.

That is what Rev 21 & 22 are describing, the living temple and the relationships with Jesus/God.

This is a physical description of a physical city:

And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11shining with the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious jewel, like a jasper, as clear as crystal. 12The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15The angel who spoke with me had a golden measuring rod to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16The city lies foursquare, with its width the same as its length. And he measured the city with the rod, and all its dimensions were equal—12,000 stadiad in length and width and height. 17And he measured its wall to be 144 cubits,e by the human measure the angel was using.

18The wall was made of jasper, and the city itself of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were adorned with every kind of precious stone:

The first foundation was jasper,

the second sapphire,

the third chalcedony,

the fourth emerald,

20the fifth sardonyx,

the sixth carnelian,

the seventh chrysolite,

the eighth beryl,

the ninth topaz,

the tenth chrysoprase,

the eleventh jacinth,

and the twelfth amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, with each gate consisting of a single pearl. The main street of the city was pure gold, as clear as glass.

22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.f 25Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.

[Diaste]

 

On 12/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, The Light said:

 

Boy. We are to watch...........FOR THE LORD.........for the master, not the Antichrist.

And what would one be watching for? Jesus says, " 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door."

All what things? All the things He talked about, including the A of D and GT. 

On 12/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, The Light said:

Well, I understand why you are not watching.

I am watching, and listening.

 

On 12/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, The Light said:

If we can't watch, why does He tell us to watch.

What do we watch for? " all these things, "

On 12/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, The Light said:

No. The barley and wheat harvest will occur first. This is the grain harvest and the rapture of the Church.

Then the fruit harvest will occur next. The seed fo the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

The 144,000 are the first fruit of this harvest, which occurs at the 6th and is seen at the end of Revelation 14.

Those in the 5th seal are talking about the great tribulation. Those that were killed in the 1st century.........etc., etc., are already in heaven as the dead in Christ rise first..........the barley harvest. Those at the 5th seal will be mostly of the 12 tribes except for gleanings of the poor and stranger of the Gentiles.

You place more stock in the ancient ways than is warranted by the eschatological prophecies. Jesus never mentioned looking back to harvests in any of the records of the Olivet discourse. 

On 12/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, The Light said:

The first fruits of the harvest are of the 12 tribes, so the harvest is of the 12 tribes. If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins.

No. The great multitude is 'from every nation and tribe and people and tongue,'. The 144k are simply the first of the main harvest of believers. Lineage has no bearing on the composition of the elect.

On 12/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, The Light said:

If you would read the Word of God as it is written and quit changing things to make your doctrine work, you would change your views.

Don't change the Word to fit your doctrine, change your doctrine to fit the Word.

I don't have a doctrine. I just listen to the scriptures.

[Diaste]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

Exactly. But Jews will be regrafted after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in as part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

Come on. Dispensationalists don't think they have replaced Israel. That is people that think the Lord only comes one time. They think God has rejected His Chosen.

It's an unholy marriage.

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

What are you talking about? Those events in Revelation 12 where the seed of the woman, who keep the commandments of God and now have the testimony of Jesus Christ, occur during the tribulation period. This does not happen within the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, one year wrath of God.

That's true. Shows the church on earth during GT. 

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

The Church, the first fold is, in heaven. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why you insist on making it about the Gentiles is puzzling.

The people of Daniel are those of the Israel of God. There is no Jew or Greek or Gentile, all are one in Christ. This is the truth of the 'people of Daniel'.

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

NO SIR. The Woman, Israel, that flees to her place of protection do not have the testimony of Jesus Christ at the time of the 6th seal or they would be raptured along with the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

The escape of the woman and the persecution of her seed that keep the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ happens before the 6th seal/7th trump. Revelation has chronological sections, it is not all in chronological order from 1-22.

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are the twelve tribes across............not those of Israel that flee to a place of protection. The woman remains on earth during the wrath of God. The Church and 12 tribes across the earth that have the testimony of Jesus Christ will be in heaven for the marriage supper.

Contradictory. Believers do not endure the wrath of God. 

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

Revelation 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

No, no, no. The dragon goes after the woman during the tribulation. The woman has fled to her place of protection. When the dragon can't get to the woman, he goes after her seed, which are the Jews all over the world.

Not Jews, believers. Jews do not hold to the testimony of Jesus. If they do they are no longer Jews but believers in Jesus. 

 

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

The Church is sitting in heaven for the wedding feast. Jesus will return for the seed of the woman as they will know He is the Messiah with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

How many rapture/resurrections do you need? 

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, The Light said:

Luke 12

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

 

[Diaste]

On 12/1/2024 at 9:03 AM, The Light said:

You got a chapter and verse of Paul telling us that people accepted Jesus as Messiah before the flood? 

No one is saved without Jesus. That goes back to the very beginning. You should know this already.

On 12/1/2024 at 9:03 AM, The Light said:

Are you kidding me? You got the wrong guy. I believe that the Gentiles are the first harvest..........just as the Word says. I believe, the seed of the woman, the tribes across the earth are the second harvest........just as the Word of God says. I believe there are two folds, that make up the Israel of God. The Gentiles, who know Christ and hear His voice are the first fold. Then blindness is removed from part of Israel and they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ........just as the Word says.

No. There is no Jew, Greek or Gentile; all are one in Christ. If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. This is the true Israel of God. That you continue to insist there is a Gentile church is evidence of replacement. Gentiles are grafted in to the Israel of God, they are not a stand alone.

On 12/1/2024 at 9:03 AM, The Light said:

 

The are two folds........two harvests..........grain and fruit........two raptures.....when will the light go on?

Nope. Can't just add gatherings and resurrections willy nilly as needed.

[Diaste]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

It has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with the 7th trumpet at end of the wrath of God. You have the Church on the earth during Gods. We are not appointed to wrath.

The last, 7th, trump is the gathering and the onset of wrath. The 6th seal is the return of Jesus and impending wrath, wrath does not occur at the 6th seal, it is only the harbinger.

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Here is Paul telling believers that they did not miss the gathering from heaven and earth and that they are not in the Day of the Lord, the seventh seal, one year wrath of God.

2 Thes 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

True.

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Again, you have the Church on earth during the Day of the Lord, when the Word is clear that the gathering occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord. You views do not line up with scripture.

Again, I do not. I see GT as a period within the last week, not the whole last week as suggested by pretrib. I see wrath as period within the last week occurring after GT. I have always said this, I have not changed. 

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Leviticus 23

24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

The Feast of Trumpets is a memorial of blowing trumpets. Why don't you go ask a Jew what the last trump is instead of guessing. And you think the last trumpet that sounds will be the sound of an angel? You probably should study the Feasts of God.

After the 7th trumpet blown by an angle there will be Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. There will be a trumpet blown on that day. And there will be more as these feasts do not stop.

The facts are we have a series of trumpets blown by angels each of which is part of the seventh seal wrath of God. But Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the wrath of God. The gathering is BEFORE the wrath of God. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, is when the last trump sounds. It is when the mystery of bodies change of the people of Daniel.

So you can't. Noted. 

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The people of Daniel are raised immediately after the tribulation of those days. The Church has already been raised and are in heaven. After the tribulation, the 7th seal one year wrath of God begins.

Yet you cannot show where in all scripture this vast group appears. What you suggest must be a group in the billions, all holy and sacred and translated into the some place in the heavens. But they appear no where in the written word.

The groups that do appear and resurrected and translated are only those that have been through GT and faced the evils of the beast. 

I'm gonna say, based on that, pretrib is nothing more than hope in the nonexistent.

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.........immediately after the tribulation of those days..........and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

Again, you have the Church going through the wrath of God which is unscriptural.

I don't. That's a strawman. I have never argued for that.

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

 

NOPE.

Wrath is OVER at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

No. Wrath 'is come'. It begins at the 7th trump. 

The nations were enraged,c

and Your wrath has come.

Here the verb is one of existence. It's not past tense, the aorist has no tense. Wrath is here at this point in the timeline.

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Revelation 7

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. ARMAGEDDON IS ALREADY OVER. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

The trumpets and vials occur in the same frame........the seventh seal Day of the Lord, one year wrath of God. Look at the end of Revelation 11 and then look at the end of Revelation 16.

Revelation 11

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In summary. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, wrath is OVER. Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals of Revelation 6. When you are reading Revelation 15, you are in Revelation 7. When you are reading Revelation 16 you are in the 7th seal, Day of the Lord.....so you are in the same timeframe of Revelation 8-11.

Christ sets up the millennial kingdom when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet. It's over, it's finished, it's complete. You are just getting addition information of the same timeframe when you are reading Rev 13-16.

My word, I'm impressed. How do you realize this and still remain so far from the truth? 

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

 

You are exactly right that Revelation 6 is the coming of Jesus, the second coming, immediately after the tribulation. You are incorrect that Revelation 6 has anything whatsoever to do with Revelation 11.

Revelation 6 is the end of the tribulation...............then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Revelation 8-11 is the 7th seal, Day of the Lord. Likewise, Revelation 16 occurs in the 7th seal day of the Lord. It is additional information of the same timeframe

Yes. And no. 

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

It's time for you to understand what is really happening. You're a smart guy. When the 7th trumpet sounds Christ has returned, set up His kingdom and it is the time of judgement. Armageddon has already happened.

As above, the 7th trump is the existence of wrath, not the end.

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

I am not equating the last week with the wrath of God. You, however, understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then you erroneously equate the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth, to the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath when Christ sets up His kingdom. So you are equating the tribulation to the wrath of God.

Yes, but as you know, the end of GT is not the end of the week, wrath is yet to come. The whole week is not God's wrath. I don't ever say Jesus comes at the end of Wrath. What I see is the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur at the same time/space moment. I have never separated them by a time factor longer than mere moments. 

That 6th seal/7th trump conjunction is when Jesus arrives, then wrath falls. 

On 12/1/2024 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal it is for a harvest BEFORE the wrath of God. When Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet, it is to set up the millennial kingdom. Wrath is over. Armageddon has happened.

He doesn't arrive twice.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

And what would one be watching for? Jesus says, " 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door."

All what things? All the things He talked about, including the A of D and GT. 

The Church will not be on the earth when the AOD and GT occur.

Jesus is talking to the Jews as His ministry was to the whole house of Israel. It is the Jews that will see the AOD and GT as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

You place more stock in the ancient ways than is warranted by the eschatological prophecies. Jesus never mentioned looking back to harvests in any of the records of the Olivet discourse. 

There are many things that Jesus did not mention in the Olivet Discourse.

Colossians 2

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. The great multitude is 'from every nation and tribe and people and tongue,' 

Of course, the great multitude is from every nation and tribe and people and tongue. That because the Church is raptured pretrib and then comes back with the Lord when He comes for the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, at the gathering from heaven and earth. The great multitude contains the Gentiles, the first fold and the 12 tribes across the earth, the second fold. Both are joined to together as one fold....the great multitude.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

. The 144k are simply the first of the main harvest of believers.

They are the first fruits of the second harvest. They are of the 12 tribes. That is why after the rapture at the 6th seal they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Lineage has no bearing on the composition of the elect.

Both folds are elect.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

That's true. Shows the church on earth during GT. 

The Church is in heaven during the GT. Those are the seed of the woman that go through the GT and are raptured to heaven as part of the great multitude at the 6th seal...........BEFORE the wrath of God.

You have everyone on earth during Gods wrath though we are not appointed to wrath. Paul makes that clear.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

The people of Daniel are those of the Israel of God.

The people of Daniel are the second fold of the Israel of God. Daniels people are clearly the ones that God through 70 weeks. There was no Church on earth during the first 69 weeks, so the Church is not part of the people of Daniel.

All you're doing by ignoring that truth is fooling yourself. I have never seen a purpose for that, but I see it all the time. 

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

There is no Jew or Greek or Gentile, all are one in Christ. This is the truth of the 'people of Daniel'.

Proven to be wrong by the 69 weeks that were upon the people of Daniel before the Church ever came about. Since 70 weeks are determined upon Daniels people and the Church missed the first 69 week, It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to be Daniels people.

Why do so many go to great lengths to fool themselves. I can't grasp it. It won't compute with me. Don't you want to know the truth? The above proves that you are incorrect. Why not accept it and learn from it?

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

The escape of the woman and the persecution of her seed that keep the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ happens before the 6th seal/7th trump.

The escape of the woman and the persecution of her seed......the twelve tribes across the earth........does happen before the 6th seal.

But the 6th seal has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet. Do you not understand this?

 

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Revelation has chronological sections, it is not all in chronological order from 1-22.

Agreed. But it is obvious that you don't understand the order as you seem to think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the second coming, before the Day of the Lord has something to do with the coming of Jesus, the second advent, at the end of the Day of the Lord.

The 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are completely separate events.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Contradictory. Believers do not endure the wrath of God. 

Believers are in heaven during the wrath of God, just as the Word says. See the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Both folds are in heaven.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not Jews, believers. Jews do not hold to the testimony of Jesus. If they do they are no longer Jews but believers in Jesus. 

After the pretribulation rapture of the Church, God will remove blindness from part of Israel.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

How many rapture/resurrections do you need? 

 

I need one and only one.

However, there are two raptures as there are two folds, as the fig tree has two harvests, as one like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot. One at the trump of God or voice of God and one at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

there are two raptures as there are two folds, as the fig tree has two harvests, as one like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

Dude.... 

What are you talking about?

Earlier, you stated that there is a wheat harvest and a grape harvest.

Now you are saying that there are two fig harvests as well?

You forgot all the other harvests in Israel. You may as well have a rapture in those harvests too, whatever floats your boat ... that would make, I don't know, about 7 or 8 rapture/harvests.