The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

On 12/5/2024 at 3:53 PM, The Light said:

Totally agree. So how do you think the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal before the wrath of God, is the some coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpets AFTER the wrath of God.

Are the trumpets not the wrath of God? If you think not, you might want to reread the 7th seal again.

Again, the aorist tense in both Rev 6 and Rev 11 denotes the existence of wrath. The aorist does not carry tenses nor duration. 

Since it is the same aorist 'is come' or 'elthen' in both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18, and both are aorist indicative active 3rd person, one cannot be past and the other future; neither can both be past nor both be future. Dispensationalism missed this because they just don't listen. 

What we see in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 is the existence of wrath. The definition of the verb is either the act of coming or the state of arrival and it's the same verb in both passages.

So no, the 7th trump is not after the wrath of God, the wrath of God is either on the way or having arrived at the 7th trump, just like at the 6th seal. 

It's long been assumed the trumps arise out of the 7th seal and the vials arise from the last trump, this is not the case. 

7th Seal

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

7th Trump

"And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

7th Bowl

"And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake "

This looks to me like all three march to a climax in a singular event.

6th Seal

"and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

7th Bowl

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found."

Another similarity more than suggesting seals, trumps, and bowls meet at the same time/space moment, or very nearly so.

 

[Diaste]

On 12/5/2024 at 4:09 PM, The Light said:

I am consistent. There are two folds. The Church is the first fold. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth are the second fold. Two folds into one become the great multitude.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If Jesus was sent to only the Jews, then the Gentiles have no part in what Jesus spoke. 

Variously, Jesus words are only to Jews or Israel, then when it suits, Jesus words are for everyone. Poppycock!

[Diaste]

On 12/5/2024 at 4:09 PM, The Light said:

On 12/5/2024 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

Stay on point. We are talking about what He did say and contrasting that to what you say. Jesus told us to watch and what to watch for. You add in what you'd like to see. Jesus said, "when you see all these things...", and he did not mention harvests.

He is talking to the Jews. The Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

So your definitions are changing?

On 12/5/2024 at 4:09 PM, The Light said:

On 12/5/2024 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

Nope. The time/space origin of the great multitude is: 

“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; 

They did not come from heaven, not a single one. They came from GT, on earth. Not a one was gathered pretrib.

Expand  

There is a great multitude which includes the Church that will be raptured pretrib. Then there is a group..........the second fold...........that comes out of great tribulation. Not too hard to understand.

Except the pretrib group is never shown in the hoped for location throughout all of scripture. Contrast that to the GT group and the ones who faced the beast and/or were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. So where is the pretrib group, with scriptural evidence of their location after the rapture?

On 12/5/2024 at 4:09 PM, The Light said:

On 12/5/2024 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

And there shall be one fold. Not two, one. 

exactly.......two folds into one fold.

On 12/5/2024 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

So where is this first harvest group in scripture?

I already showed........several times. Read Revelation 4 and 5.

Rejected as non factual evidence of a pretrib group. Elders are elders, not the church. There is no connection or explanation except for wishes and hope.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

You and all others who ascribe to the doctrine keep saying that, but where do we see them in scripture described as being in heaven. We see a large group coming out of GT described in great detail answering all the questions of: When? Where? Who? What? Why? and we even see the new and greater altered state in which they exist; peaceful ease of eternity.  

Nothing like that exists for a pretrib group. Why not?

I'm not sure how many times we need to do this. You want absolute proof nailed down with a doubt so you can be 100% sure exactly when He is coming. Here is the proof that the Lord gives.

Matthew 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Here is the group in heaven that you can't seem to find. If you want to change US to THEM in the text........no problem.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Additionally, the twenty four elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come. If you cannot accept these facts.............and others............that's just the way it's going to be.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

This looks to me like all three march to a climax in a singular event.

Yes. That's the gist of the problem. It looks to you.............

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Another similarity more than suggesting seals, trumps, and bowls meet at the same time/space moment, or very nearly so.

 

Oh boy. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. Then the 7th seal is opened which contains the trumpets and vials of wrath. So again, it looks to you...........facts tell a different story.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

So your definitions are changing?

Except the pretrib group is never shown in the hoped for location throughout all of scripture. 

I'm not sure how many times we need to do this. You want absolute proof nailed down with a doubt so you can be 100% sure exactly when He is coming. Here is the proof that the Lord gives.

Matthew 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Here is the group in heaven that you can't seem to find. If you want to change US to THEM in the text........no problem.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Additionally, the twenty four elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come. If you cannot accept these facts.............and others............that's just the way it's going to be.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Contrast that to the GT group and the ones who faced the beast and/or were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. 

Yeah. You are referring to the Jews that are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

So where is the pretrib group, with scriptural evidence of their location after the rapture?

I'm not sure how many times we need to do this. You want absolute proof nailed down with a doubt so you can be 100% sure exactly when He is coming. Here is the proof that the Lord gives.

Matthew 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Here is the group in heaven that you can't seem to find. If you want to change US to THEM in the text........no problem.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Additionally, the twenty four elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come. If you cannot accept these facts.............and others............that's just the way it's going to be.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rejected as non factual evidence of a pretrib group. 

I'm not sure how many times we need to do this. You want absolute proof nailed down with a doubt so you can be 100% sure exactly when He is coming. Here is the proof that the Lord gives.

Matthew 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Here is the group in heaven that you can't seem to find. If you want to change US to THEM in the text........no problem.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Additionally, the twenty four elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come. If you cannot accept these facts.............and others............that's just the way it's going to be.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Elders are elders, not the church. There is no connection or explanation except for wishes and hope.

I'm good with that. However, those elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come. 

I do suspect that they are of the dead in Christ which rise first while the alive remain, but I have no absolute, concrete, 100%, chiseled in stone proof that you require, even though we are told He is coming when you think not, which kind of eliminates the absolute, concrete, 100%, chiseled in stone proof that you require.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Again, the aorist tense in both Rev 6 and Rev 11 denotes the existence of wrath. The aorist does not carry tenses nor duration. 

Since it is the same aorist 'is come' or 'elthen' in both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18, and both are aorist indicative active 3rd person, one cannot be past and the other future; neither can both be past nor both be future. Dispensationalism missed this because they just don't listen. 

What we see in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 is the existence of wrath. The definition of the verb is either the act of coming or the state of arrival and it's the same verb in both passages.

So no, the 7th trump is not after the wrath of God, the wrath of God is either on the way or having arrived at the 7th trump, just like at the 6th seal. 

It's long been assumed the trumps arise out of the 7th seal and the vials arise from the last trump, this is not the case. 

7th Seal

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

7th Trump

"And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

7th Bowl

"And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake "

This looks to me like all three march to a climax in a singular event.

6th Seal

"and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

7th Bowl

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found."

Another similarity more than suggesting seals, trumps, and bowls meet at the same time/space moment, or very nearly so.

 

You only miss one small detail brother, if Jesus is showing a VISION in his dictation of the 7 Seals of future events, then he would describe them as being active in the vision, of course. That is why the Angel says "Come and See" via the Seals, but when it comes to the Trumps and Vials we see a different set of facts, the Angels blow or sound the Judgment via the Trumps and they pour out the Judgments via the Vials. 

So, of course the Seals are the Trumps and Vials being foretold. I simply can not grasp why people can not get this lingo Jesus is using. It was well understood 2000 years ago, a King Sealed a message with a Wax Signet Ring, and no one could thus read his message until the 3rd wax seal was broken. God speaks in God terms, like 7 since that represents Divine Completion. So, 7 Seals simply means God's Divine Judgment will not come forth until the 7th Seal is off. God Himself wrote this book, it reeks of a higher form of intelligence, its filled with symbology, encoded references, and metaphors. 

Yes, the 6th Seal seems alike the others because its a foretelling of what is coming. That is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8 where an Asteroid brings God's Wrath.

The 7 Trumps are God's Full Wrath, but the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, which makes them the 3rd Woe. So, your hunch is pretty spot on, but The Trumps go in order, so the 7 Vials end it all, because it is the 7th Trump being fulfilled, so when one prophet verse is spoken twice, it can be true, not because all the Trumps and Vials are the same thing, but rather because the Trumps and Vials both bring it all to pass because the 7th Vial is the 7th Trump, AND is also the 3rd Woe. 

In other Words, Seals 1-5 Describes the Anti-Christs 42 month reign, he is not allowed to go forth conquering until God's Wrath hits via the Asteroid. Then Seal #6 is DECRIBING all of God's Wrath to come, so naturally you get two LIKE VERSES. One describes the Wrath that is coming after the Rev. 8 Asteroid hits earth, the other is that Wrath coming to pass in Rev. 16. But alas, when Rev. 8 will bring the 7 Vials, so that verse being repeated likewise is true, the 7th Trump brings the 7 Vials. 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

If Jesus was sent to only the Jews, then the Gentiles have no part in what Jesus spoke. 

Variously, Jesus words are only to Jews or Israel, then when it suits, Jesus words are for everyone. Poppycock!

Jesus' Ministry was only unto Jews, he said so, but not his Sacrifice. That must be remembered. He had to follow the Laws until his death or he never would have had a ministry, if he's breaking the laws probably most of his Disciples would have not followed him.  We can not look at this without using hindsight. 

[Keras]

20 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus' Ministry was only unto Jews, he said so,

Jesus said: I was sent to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel and to them only. Matthew 15:25

The Jews are the known people of the House of Judah. 

However, we know that ethnicity has no bearing now, on who can be saved. Ephesians 2:11-18

[abcdef]

On 12/3/2024 at 5:53 AM, Diaste said:

What I'm trying to point out is what Jesus said. He spoke of the A of D a spoken of by Daniel the prophet. That A of D prophesied of by Daniel was fulfilled in 168 BC. That means we have a template for the A of D that Jesus told us about; "when you see the abomination of desolation..." That A of D prophesied by Daniel in the 9th chapter is described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/353-abomination-of-desolation

And the surrounding acts by AE IV described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

You'll see that Titus really had nothing to do with it and did not fulfill the prophecy or comport with the template. 

The abominations in Dan 9 are not the same as the one in Dan 11:31. One is Greek and one is Roman.

We agree that the AoD in Dan 11 is Antiochus in 168 BC, but the Dan 9 AoD is tied to the time of Jesus coming to Israel in 30 AD, His death in 33 1/2 AD, and the consequences of those actions in 70 AD.

Jesus knew that the Dan 11 prophecy had been fulfilled, so the only other prophecy that Jesus could be speaking about was the Dan 9 AoD prophecy.

---

Titus does fit the Dan 9 timeline. The Messiah comes to Israel in 30 AD. That is the anchor in the timeline, the coming of Jesus the Prince.

Titus desolated the Temple and Jerusalem.

Titus did sacrifice a pig on the temple altar.

What did Titus or didn't do that disqualifies him from being the Antichrist of in 70 AD?