Some Who Call Themselves 'Christian' Will Not Inherit the Kingdom of God?

[AdHoc]

3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

As in the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25.  However, least we think too extreme of Him that He expects a lot, the ones that pleased Him in that same parable were "faithful in a few things."  So the bar is not set unreasonably high by any means.  Those who are simply faithful with a few things that He gives, will be rewarded.  

The unfaithful servant erred in that he was afraid and hid his master's talent.  Much like how Adam & Eve were afraid and hid - it's what sin in the flesh does.  Yet Jesus says, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."  Our loving and merciful God goes to the extremes for His children, and does His best to catch them doing things right, that is, being faithful and trusting in Him.  This is exhibited in Hebrews 11.  I consider this chapter to be like "snapshots of faith" that catch His children doing things right.  Was the bar set unreasonably high in this chapter in order for various ones to be mentioned?  I don't think so, as about everyone mentioned there blew it big time on at least one occasion (and most several).  Yet there's the snapshot in Hebrews 11, of them being faithful in a few things!

Every coin has two sides. You just showed the other side of the matter. We are weak and need coaching. I like this verse;

 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.  (Lk 12:32).

[Vine Abider]

4 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Every coin has two sides. You just showed the other side of the matter. We are weak and need coaching. I like this verse;

 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.  (Lk 12:32).

Yes - we need to turn the cake on both sides!

[BornAgain490]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Brother, I salute you. You are fully correct. The OP was about those who call themselves Christians but who are not born again. I addressed a wider picture which was not truly an accurate response.

But, my fault aside, you did enter, with good arguments, the dispute as to whether a born again Christian can wallow in sin until he dies. I would be thankful if you would let me answer that. If you choose not to, I understand.

David is held high as both man and king. Jeremiah 30 predicts the recovery and restoration of Israel with Jerusalem. In verse 9 the prophet predicts that David will be king and second in command to Jesus. So David will be a king in the Kingdom. That means tha David is born again. His faith in God is undisputed. His faith in Jesus is undisputed when we read the Psalms. Yet this man did the following - all planned.
1. He coveted his neighbor's wife
2. He committed adultery with his neighbor's wife
3. He used his kingly position to betray a faithful general
4. He used his kingly position to murder his friend and fellow soldier
5. He used his kingly position to draw other men into conspiracy to commit murder
6. He multiplied wives to himself
6. His opinion was that such a man should die

Now, we all have our opinions as to the severity of David's lust, desire, cunning, disloyalty, treatment of a fellow soldier, his abuse of royal powers and how many Laws he broke - not counting his character as a back-stabber. Based on your posting, would you say that such a man is born again?

Thank you for your reply. Kindly accept my response. 

David was indeed born again.  He was a man after God's own heart; greatly used of God for His will. 

David did that which many born again in Christ do: he backslid into sin, serious sin, much like Sampson before him, and Solomon after. 

Because David had the indwelling Holy Spirit of promise, he regretted his sin, he had remorse for the harm he caused, and he cried out in repentance and faith for forgiveness.  David's mournful response to the charge brought against him by the prophet was only possible because he had the indwelling Holy Spirit.  

The question thus becomes whether King David, the apple of God's eye, is the rule or the exception. 

[Cntrysner]

If being born again is a reference to becoming a new creature created in Christ I would say King David was not born again. David repented and was restored, having the Holy Spirit to guide and empower David as God’s chosen king is not the same as being born of the Spirit.

 Jesus was the first conceived by the Spirit and we are born again by that same Spirit in Christ.     
    

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Thank you for your reply. Kindly accept my response. 

David was indeed born again.  He was a man after God's own heart; greatly used of God for His will. 

David did that which many born again in Christ do: he backslid into sin, serious sin, much like Sampson before him, and Solomon after. 

Because David had the indwelling Holy Spirit of promise, he regretted his sin, he had remorse for the harm he caused, and he cried out in repentance and faith for forgiveness.  David's mournful response to the charge brought against him by the prophet was only possible because he had the indwelling Holy Spirit.  

The question thus becomes whether King David, the apple of God's eye, is the rule or the exception. 

Hebrews chapter 11 is a key to this understanding, I think.  In that chapter, David is mentioned, along with many other imperfect people.  Their commonality is faith. And faith is just the trusting and belief that the answer doesn't lie in any way with them, but rather in God Himself.  These ones had their foibles and shortcomings, but God chooses to look at and see the instances where they leaned on and trusted wholly in Him.

David and Abraham are great examples.  It's hard to think of someone who did more to fall out of favor with God than David, regarding the whole mess with Bathsheba!  Yet what does God honor? David's turning to Him, repenting and trusting in God!  And Abraham tried to give his wife away twice!  And he didn't trust God to produce an heir, so went instead to Hagar - big mistake!  Yet God fully knows what's in man, yet He loves us and shows infinite mercy, if we just turn to Him and trust in Him alone.  He then is faithful to restore us in fellowship with Him.

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes - we need to turn the cake on both sides!

 

12 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Thank you for your reply. Kindly accept my response. 

David was indeed born again.  He was a man after God's own heart; greatly used of God for His will. 

David did that which many born again in Christ do: he backslid into sin, serious sin, much like Sampson before him, and Solomon after. 

Because David had the indwelling Holy Spirit of promise, he regretted his sin, he had remorse for the harm he caused, and he cried out in repentance and faith for forgiveness.  David's mournful response to the charge brought against him by the prophet was only possible because he had the indwelling Holy Spirit.  

The question thus becomes whether King David, the apple of God's eye, is the rule or the exception. 

 

34 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

If being born again is a reference to becoming a new creature created in Christ I would say King David was not born again. David repented and was restored, having the Holy Spirit to guide and empower David as God’s chosen king is not the same as being born of the Spirit.

 Jesus was the first conceived by the Spirit and we are born again by that same Spirit in Christ.     
    

The possibilities to derail this thread are great. So let me, as one of you said, return to the OP. And we have a prime example to base our views upon - David.

The OP leans towards grievous and/or habitual sinners not being born again. But further discussion brought to light renown men of God failing - and failing badly. That David was born again is established, not by WORKS, but by "RECEIVING" Jesus. John 1 says;

 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This BIRTH is not dependent on whether Jesus died for sins or not. The contrast in the verse is Jesus COMING to Israel. Sin and sins are a hindrance, but the actual rebirth is an issue of RECEIVING Jesus. If Adam had not sinned, he would have eaten from the Tree of Life and without any necessity for the shedding of blood, he would have taken into his person eternal life. Vine says of the Greek word "lambano" ("received") that it means "to receive as a self-prompted action independent of personal acceptance". That is, you receive Jesus whether you like him and His work or not.

When Adam was told of a man who would one day come and defeat the serpent and restore life, he accepted this and called his wife, "mother of ALL LIVING" (Gen.3.20). Who are the "ALL LIVING"? Genesis 5 states the genealogy of Adam and they ALL DIE! "ALL LIVING" can be understood two ways;
1. Eve is mother ONLY of those alive
2. Eve is mother of all living meaning they will be ALL resurrected

Number 2 is correct. The Man Jesus "became the Life-Giving Spirit" (1st Cor.15:45) and He came out of Eve without connection to Adam's sinful nature. Then, in quite a separate event, to maintain fellowship, God sheds blood to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness. the point of all this is ACCEPTING or RECEIVING Jesus is by FAITH and is independent of Works. The works of man must be dealt with a separate work of God. If you are still not sure, read John 1:29. Jesus is the Lamb -not of Israel - but OF GOD, and this Lamb takes away the "sin" (singular) OF THE WORLD. "Sin" (singular) is mostly used by scripture to denote the fallen nature of mankind (see Romans 5:12-17, 6:23). So in John Chapter 3 our Lord Jesus can say, "if I be lifted up on a tree, I will draw ALL MEN to me." This does not mean ALL MEN will be saved. It means that all men will be resurrected. Physical death will be overcome BUT NOT ALL MEN RECEIVE HIM.

So, while sin is dealt with, and with it death overcome, ONLY those who RECEIVED Jesus are born again - WHETHER LOOKING FORWARD AS ABRAHAM AND DAVID DID, OR LOOKING BACK AS WE DO. The matter of sins is dealt with in a separate work. For the sanctification of Israel in Daniel 9, 70 weeks are appointed. If Israel were compliant and accepted their Messiah, the 70 weeks would have ended in Israel's restoration. But Messiah is rejected so a period is inserted before the 70 week can be accomplished. So also the Church. The born-again saints are "predestinated" (not to salvation) but to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29). The question is the same for Christians as Israel. Will the believer be MATURE at the end of this age OR must he, like Israel, undergo further training for 1,000 years.

Sinning is a serious matter, but it will be settled by God EITHER WAY - in the age of grace (now), or in His Millennial Kingdom, the age of the rule of the iron rod. REBIRTH on the other hand, is already an issue of ETERNAL LIFE. It cannot be taken away. You can send Prince Charles (now king) to Eton College or the Gulags of Russia for his training. But his status as son of the queen CANNOT BE UNDONE.

Thus, the answer to the Title, or OP is this.
1. Those not born again but who claim to be will be exposed by their fruit and be burned
2. Those who are born again will remain so. If they sin they will enter the Millennium as students of holiness - to be dealt with. If they cooperate and mature in matters of holiness, they will ENTER Christ's Kingdom AS KINGS 

[AdHoc]

Hey brethren! I just went through the previous posting again. It's a mouthful. I realize that this is not taught in most Assemblies. Take your time to weigh each statement. Comfort yourselves with the fact that or Lord Jesus is not just the sin-offering. He fulfills FOUR other Offerings and then some (drink, wave and heave offerings). His life and death are all-encompassing. There is lots of detail that God had to master, but which you will take time to understand. It'll take time. I've been at it since 1982 and still feel like I'm in Kindergarten.

Bottom Line: Eternal Life cannot be lost. Your position as co-king with Christ can.

[BornAgain490]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Hebrews chapter 11 is a key to this understanding, I think.  In that chapter, David is mentioned, along with many other imperfect people.  Their commonality is faith. And faith is just the trusting and belief that the answer doesn't lie in any way with them, but rather in God Himself.  These ones had their foibles and shortcomings, but God chooses to look at and see the instances where they leaned on and trusted wholly in Him.

David and Abraham are great examples.  It's hard to think of someone who did more to fall out of favor with God than David, regarding the whole mess with Bathsheba!  Yet what does God honor? David's turning to Him, repenting and trusting in God!  And Abraham tried to give his wife away twice!  And he didn't trust God to produce an heir, so went instead to Hagar - big mistake!  Yet God fully knows what's in man, yet He loves us and shows infinite mercy, if we just turn to Him and trust in Him alone.  He then is faithful to restore us in fellowship with Him.

Amen. 

As followers of Jesus, we look to Him, the author and finisher of our faith, as our model ti guide and lead us in paths of righteousness for His namesake.  And Paul teaches and admonishes Christians to live Christ-like, and writes for our edification a non-exhsistive list of sinful behaviors that we should avoid, because those sins will keep people from inheriting the kingdom of God. 

We know of some of the sins of David, and of Abraham and many others, yet we see their names in the Hall of Faith (Hebrews 11). 

How, then, does one reconcile the serious sins of those faithful OT servants of God with the warnings Paul gives in 1 Corinth. 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, and Ephesians 5:3-5?

"Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"  (Romans 6:1-2).

New Covenant vs Old Covenant? 

Edited December 15, 2024 by BornAgain490

[missmuffet]

On 12/14/2024 at 9:32 AM, BornAgain490 said:

Thank you for your reply.  Kindly consider my response.

The truly born again retains his sin nature and may backslide and sin, but he will hate his sin, regret his sin, be remorseful of his sin, and will repent of his sin because he has the conviction and quickening of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The carnal man, the man who might claim to be in Christ but continues to walk in the flesh minding the things of the flesh and minding nothing spiritual, will carry-on in sin with impunity because he has not been quickened by, nor does he have the conviction of, the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The OP addresses the carnal man who claims to be "Christian", yet shows absolutely no change in direction or devotion, but rather continues to be as he has always been: in his pursuit of hedonism. This is that which the OP addresses. 

 

Yes. God is already ruling and reigning on earth in and through the saints.  The "real born again Christian" knows his King, and the King knows him because the King indwells him via the Holy Spirit.

Brother, "real, born again Christians" can and do sin, but we are "established ... in Christ" by God (2 Cor. 1:21), "who has also sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts" (2 Cor. 1:22), so that we are now "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritence until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14). 

"Real, born again Christians" are "sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ."  Jude :1

Therefore, as our Lord Jesus has assured by promise to all that are born again in Him, He says, "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  I and My Father are one."  (John 10:28-30).

Moses did not enter the promised land (Deuter. 32:48-52), but Moses surely is in the Kingdom. (Matthew 17; Mark 9; Hebrews 11).  

 

We are all sinners. Everyone has a conscience except if it has been seared. We recognize our sinful behavior

from the Holy Spirit and repent. We try to not commit that sin again. We will be perfect in heaven.

[AnOrangeCat]

20 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

As in the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 - there definitely is accountability!  However, least we think too extreme of Him that He expects a lot, the ones that pleased Him in that same parable were "faithful in a few things."  So the bar is not set unreasonably high by any means.  Those who are simply faithful with a few things that He gives, will be rewarded.  

The unfaithful servant erred in that he was afraid and hid his master's talent. 

I see more than just fear in play. As an observation (I might be reading too much into it), from looking over the text of the unfaithful servant I get the feeling that the relationship between the master and the servant wasn't great. Why?

“Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’"

He says he was afraid. But he also says his master is a "hard man" and reaped where he hadn't sown. Keeping in mind the importance and prevalence of agriculture at the time IMO that reads like some sort of accusation of dishonesty or theft. The Greek word used for "hard", sklēros, seems to carry some pretty negative possible meanings. To put it in a modern situation imagine going up to your boss and saying "Hey, I didn't do my job because I think you're mean and you profit off of other people's labor." Hard to imagine that ending well.

The master in the parable turned it right back around on him and and told him that if the servant knew he was like that then at bare minimum he could have put the money in a bank. So my take is that the servant was making a flimsy excuse and was pretty disrespectful in doing so.