Birth Pangs & First Fruits

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have one question, though: Do I understand correctly? Do you believe the New Jerusalem coming to earth is symbolic-figurative and not literal?

Awaiting the reply from @AdHoc with a goodly measure of interest..... 

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Gosh - so many reasons why Jesus Himself does not fit this well at all.  I think the posts related to this are back on page one and two (please see posts by  @AdHoc and me there on this).

I'll go back and look so I can tag why the responses are in error, I have been doing this nigh 40 years now and have heard every argument on this 10 times, this is The Red Dragon (Satan) The Woman (Israel as Gen. 37:9 clearly shows) and Jesus the Male Child. The problem people have is they can not get God's timings correct, in many cases, this Prophesy is about the 70th week, the HEREAFTER as Rev. 4:1 says or after the Church Age (the Things that Are......as in  our current Church Age). But the Prophecy needs to be SET UP via past events, so we get the CODE to the PLAYERS in verses 1-5, its that simple.

When the 7 Headed Beast is mentioned, 6 are also past events, its woven in by God on purpose. Prophecy is like that. In  Zech. 13 verses 1-5 is about the 70th week and Israel being cleansed by a Fountain (Jesus blood).......then  in verses 6-7 we are told about the Shepard who is killed in the house of his friends  and how his sheep are scattered, well that happened 2000 years ago......THEN, it reverts back to the 70th week in Zech. 13:8-9 where the 1/3 repents just before the DOTL arrives in the next verse (Zech. 14:1) so that is not only how prophesy works, it makes the prophesy MUCH MORE DYNAMIC, its spread out over 2000 years who but God could put that together? That is what we get in Rev. 12 also.

I will go back, but this is cut and dry my friend, but nevertheless I love laying down information, who knows, after the rapture people might come on  these sites and heed our words, and have a check list on who were correct the most. 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/22/2024 at 11:19 AM, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for your response!

Well let's just take one thing - the man child being Jesus Christ.  So assuming the Rev 12 man child is Jesus, if you take all the things that are then said about the situation surrounding this man child in that chapter, does Jesus fit neatly into those parameters?

Why? you never say why it doesn't fit. Lets just go over it.

Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (Gen. 37:9 Joseph saw this as the Sun (Jacob) Moon (Rachel) and 11 Stars (his brothers so it is in deed and can only be Israel). 

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered(Israel delivered the Messiah).

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads(This is Satan, the Crowns on  the HEADS represent his rule over the whole world but ONLY DESIGNATES His particular rule over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region in this Prophesy, thus it can never be about The Church, who are not on earth during the 70th week anyway).

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth(Tells of Satan's FALL and the 1/3 who followed him, and who were eventually cast out of heaven): and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born(THIS is the King Herod story, where he tried to kill Baby Jesus but an angel warned Joseph & Mary and they fled to Egypt).

5 And she(Israel) brought forth a man(MALE) child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron(How can anyone not get this is Jesus? Who rules the earth with a rod of Iron? The Messiah as clearly shown below):and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne(Jesus Christ sits at God's Right Hand as we speak).

John and Paul both used this phrase to refer specifically to Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:17; Hebrews 4:12; 11:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 2 Peter 3:5; Revelation 1:2; 19:13). Jesus Christ as the iron rod embodies the various interpretations of this symbol. He is the source of scripture. He is the ultimate measuring stick.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days(God protects Israel for 1260 days).

The rest is about Israel repenting and being protected by God for 1260 days, in the Petra/Bozrah area. Verse 5 actually wraps up the CODE that gives us the players, verses 5-17 is the End Time Prophesy.

On 12/22/2024 at 11:46 AM, AdHoc said:

My dear sister, you're going to have your work cut out to show the Man-Child to be Christ. If the Man-Child is Christ then the Woman must be Mary.

The Male Child is Jesus and "The Woman" is Israel, here is the verse that proves it.

Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me(This = Israel, nothing else fits, and Israel BIRTED Jesus).

I can not understand why this is still being debated tbh. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Michael37
Typo Correction

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

I can not understand why this is still being debated tbh. 

I'm thinking the same thing (but from a different perspective)!  It doesn't appear you went back and seriously considered, with something of an open mind, the points myself and @AdHoc made as to why the male child (I actually do think "male child" is a better translation, however often use "man child" as it's more common).  But I understand, once we land on something we are convinced about, that's pretty much it - yes, of course, I'm the same way . . .  

When I get some time, I will reiterate the points why the male child doesn't fit Jesus well (unless AdHoc beats me to it).  Let me just say again that I actually do believe the male child in Rev 12 is Christ, but it is Christ matured in His regenerated overcomers.

BTW - Just one little bite to chew on in the mean time . . . "he will rule the nations with an iron rod" is also a promise made to overcoming ones in Rev 2:27.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Verse 5 actually wraps up the CODE that gives us the plyers,

Did you mean players?

[Revelation Man]

10 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Did you mean players?

Yes sir

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I can not understand why this is still being debated tbh.

I nearly merged a previous thread by VA with this when it was posted.

For me it's about the use of metaphors, and the meaning they convey.

There are variations of the childbirth metaphor in the Bible which each deal with different historical events. I think we can all agree the purpose of the metaphor is to emphasise and persuade of things nascent.

Quote:

The imagery of Israel as a woman giving birth appears in several biblical passages, symbolizing pain, struggle, and ultimately, the emergence of new life or a new era. Here are some key references:

1. Isaiah 66:7-9 (NKJV)

> "Before she was in labor, she gave birth; Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the Lord. 'Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?' says your God."

2. Revelation 12:1-2 (NKJV)

> "Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth."

3. Micah 4:10 (NKJV)

> "Be in pain, and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, Like a woman in birth pangs. For now you shall go forth from the city, You shall dwell in the field, And to Babylon you shall go. There you shall be delivered; There the Lord will redeem you From the hand of your enemies."

4. Hosea 13:13 (NKJV)

> "The sorrows of a woman in childbirth Shall come upon him. He is an unwise son, For he should not stay long where children are born."

These passages use the metaphor of childbirth to describe Israel's experiences of suffering, anticipation, and renewal. They convey the idea that through trials and tribulations, a new creation or deliverance will emerge. This imagery captures the themes of hope, redemption, and the fulfillment of God's promises. [Copilot Compilation]

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Gosh - so many reasons why Jesus Himself does not fit this well at all.  I think the posts related to this are back on page one and two (please see posts by  @AdHoc and me there on this).

Hi VA,

Now you may not realize but we ALL agree with Ad Hoc that Mary is NOT the woman in Rev. 12. No disagreement there. 

You see Mary is NOT the start of the Jesus` genealogy in God`s word. Matthew starts with `The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers.` (Matt.1: 1 & 2)

Jesus` genealogy is from Israel. And God gives us a symbolic picture of them - Sun, moon and 12 stars. (Gen. 37: 9 & 10) That is the interpretation of the woman in Rev. 12: 1 scripturally.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

 

BTW - Just one little bite to chew on in the mean time . . . "he will rule the nations with an iron rod" is also a promise made to overcoming ones in Rev 2:27.

And my hubby just pointed this out to me -

`And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him I will give power over the nations: And

`He (Jesus) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall be broken to shivers:...` (Rev. 2: 26 & 27)

`You (Jesus) shall break them with a rod of iron: you shall dash them in pieces like a potter`s vessel.` (Ps. 2: 9) 

The Revelation verse is a quote from Ps. 2 and tells who the `He` is. 

You see all the authority and power is the Lord`s and we agree with Him while He does the ruling. Whatever power or authority He gives us is always in alignment and under what the Lord is doing. He, the Lord Jesus Christ is the initiator. 

 

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have been following along quietly as a church mouse. I wanted to give a lengthy response in support of @Marilyn C views. But I am not out to change anyone’s dogmatic views. Plus, my monthly allotment of cyber ink has expired.

I have one question, though: Do I understand correctly? Do you believe the New Jerusalem coming to earth is symbolic-figurative and not literal?

I will answer this way. Have you seen, or heard of  Woman which is also a City? But this is not all. This City which is a Woman is also a Tabernacle, making it three distinct and different things at the same time. Added to this, its wall is founded on 12 men and it has Israel as gates. Added to this, God and the Lamb - two eternal beings are the Tabernacle. It is lit by Jasper but at the same time God is the Light of it. Added to this the Tree of Life is growing in three places at once - 1. in the midst of the street and on both sides of a river. All this is the City.

Now I have a question. On what basis could anyone think that this was a literal City?

But there is more. If we studied the whole Bible we would come up with scripture describing each virtue of this City to create a magnificent vista of God consummating His plans.

It starts in Eden where the same materials as New Jerusalem - Gold, Bdellium, precious stones rivers and Trees. But the fall of man comes in and some materials are changed with profound consequences. Eden is closed to man, and because the shedding of blood is required for God to approach man, silver replaces Bdellium for God's First House - the Tabernacle. A WOMAN must be redeemed with 30 pieces of silver, but Israel must GATHER round the "Tent of meeting" as God's WIFE.

Anon, the LAND is taken for a TEMPLE which now has Ceder Trees instead of Acacia, for the robustness of Christ in His wilderness walk (THE CHURCH AGE) can be replaced in the Millennium with BEAUTY.

But wood is not permanent. The Building must be ETERNAL and so the wood is slowly replaced by PRECIOUS STONES. Precious stones are wood that has undergone a process of heat and pressure and been TRANSFORMED. The Church is now complete. Once it is in resurrection it is LIKE ANGELS

But Israel, although they refused the Lamb, have a reserve - the Covenants. Deuteronomy 30:1-5 sets the terms for recovery in the Messianic Age - RIGHTEOUSNESS IN LAW. They are too in resurrection so silver is no longer needed. They can show forth EARTHLY GLORY in the PEARL as a Nation of the Sea Shore.

And the list goes on to describe God CONSUMMATING each part of His PLAN of things heavenly coming to a chaotic earth that He and His Son Jesus bring to order. EVERY ELEMENT OF NEW JERUSALEM IS FOUND IN SCRIPTURE AND ATTACHED TO GOD'S EXQUISITE PLAN.

I think that the attempt to make such a rich revelation of the detail of God's consummated plan literal is sad. Imagine a woman in the shape of a cube, 2,400 kilometers / 1,500 miles high where humans struggle to breath after 3 miles and whose blood boils by 18 miles.

Revelation 1:1 says that God revealed things to His Son Jesus by "signs". New Jerusalem as a "sign" is rich in fulfilled planning. As a cubic Woman with one street in it, it s an absurdity