Annihilationism

[LuftWaffle]

29 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Those who connect the dots understand this very well.  From James 2:26 we learn that a body without a soul/spirit is DEAD.  That's physical death.  Or do you inexplicably believe something else?

Eph 2 teaches that the unregenerate are "dead in their sins".  This is spiritual death, which is the opposite of spiritual life, or eternal life.

Of course it doesn't.  Any elementary school kid knows that.  Do YOU know what is meant by being made in the image of God?  The warning to Adam and Eve was that "on the day" they ate the fruit they would DIE.  But the Hebrew says more.  "on the day you eat of it, DYING, you shall DIE."

So there were 2 kinds of death on the day they ate.  DYING refers to the process of aging which leads to physical death.  That was the day that Adam began to age and he lived 930 years, per Gen 5:5.  So what did DIE "on the day" they ate?  Their human spirit.  Being "in the image of God" refers to the fact that God created man a trichotomus being: body, soul AND spirit.  Jesus told the woman at the well that in order to "worship God" one must do so "in (human) spirit and in truth".  This is the reason mean MUST BE born again, or regenerated.  That refers to the dead human spirit which needs to be "made alive" as Paul said i Eph 2:5.

At the moment of faith in Christ, the person is regenerated, born again, made alive, all referring to a dead human spirit that God has regenerated.  Now the person is able to worship God properly, according to His will.

And that explains why Adam and eve hid from the Lord "on the day" they ate.  They had no capacity for fellowship.  

Wow.  Mighty words, all right.  It woud be helpful to start digging into that pile and try to defend your claims with some of them.

Rather, God kept them from eating from the tree that would have KEPT them in a state of "spiritual death" forever, thus dooming any possibility of salvation for them or their future children.  

When the BIBLE SAYS the beast, false prophet, Satan (and fallen angels) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, and then we read about all unbelievers being cast into that same LOF, it's not me saying fallen man will live forever.  It's the Bible saying it.  I just quote the BIBLE.  Now, just where is that "gigantic pile" you speak of?  Where are the verses that contradict Rev 20:10?

I never said that.  Why aren't you reading correctly?  Being tormented for eternity is hardly "eternal life", or "immortality", esp SINCE those 2 descriptions are ONLY for the saved.  I don't care how you dice it.  That's up to you.  But the Bible is clear and I'll always fall on my sword over what the Bible says rather than what any man says.

No, you are just demonstrating your lack of reading skills.  I never said He can't.  Of course He could if that was His will.  Duh.

But, please start sifting through that "gigantic pile" of Scripture to find ANY verse that says that God has or will cause souls to cease to exist.  And good luck.  Not that it will help.

Claiming that the unregenerate soul will cease to exist is CONTRADICTING SCRIPTURE because Rev 20:10 says otherwise.  In clear and straightforward language that is impossible to twist into anything other than an eternity of torment.

And, again, I NEVER said such a thing.  What I have said is that Hades (torments) where the rich man still is, along with every other unregenerate who has died is, is a holding tank for all the unregenerate.  And all of them will be resurrected, or actually, raised back to physical life in their mortal physical bodies that God is more than able to put their bodies back together by simply commanding ALL the atomes and molecutes to reunite when He gives the command.  And that mortal body will DIE physically again when the person is cast into the LOF.  They DIE twice physically.  But their fully conscious souls will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

So says Scripture.  I don't need a "gigantic pile" of Scripture to prove what I believe.  I know exactly what the Bible says about the matter.

So why do you suppose the rich man wants his 5 brothers WARNED?  If souls will cease to exist, what's the point?  Do you actually have an answer?

If my soul (consciousness) were to cease to exist, that would mean there would be NO consequence for my actions, whether to be rewarded or punished.  I wonder why that very simple thought hasn't entered your mind yet.

I'm not pretending anything.  You've been refuted over and over, but your extreme bias has blinded you to the truth that can be found in that "gigantic pile" of yours.  You might want to start digging into that pile and learn the truth.  

But, you've already been shown the truth, and yet you continue to "kick the goads".

Susre, incorrectly.  You've indicated that everyone dies physically.  That's once.  But you also have indicated that the soul will cease to exist (die) when cast into the LOF, in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to Rev 20:10.  

Well, then you don't even understand what you are claiming.  If you really did believe Rev 20:10, you would understand that souls will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  And that ain't annihilation, my friend.

We don't need "interpretation" when the language is straightforward, plain and clear.  We only need understanding of the words, which you have chosen to resist.

Rev 20:10 is the clearest statement in Scripture of ECT.  And you have zero verses teaching the opposite.

But good luck trying to refute the Bible itself.  Although, I must admit, I cannot understand why any professing Christian would WANT to do that.

That idea is clearly delusional.  There are unteachable people.  They can be identified by the fact that their eyes/ears are closed.  They don't want the truth.

What you don't have is any excuse for your error.  You have been shown the truth.  There is nothing more that can be done.  You've proved nothing about your views, and Scripture refutes them soundly.

Bugs Bunny once said, "that's all, folks!"

Lol, my post wasn't even directed at you, and yet here you are again triggered and responding with statements like
 

Quote

I never said that.  Why aren't you reading correctly?

Quote

No, you are just demonstrating your lack of reading skills.  I never said He can't.

It must be really embarassing talking about reading skills when you cannot even figure out that I was responding to someone else in that post.

[LuftWaffle]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Wow, what is dishonest is your view IS one of annihilation, or the soul ceasing to exist, yet you hide your view by such vague comments as "the unsaved will be killed by God".  

So, define what you mean by "killed" in your claim.  Then everyone will fully understand your view that God will kill the soul.  Even without any Scriptural evidence, in spite of that "gigantic pile" of Scripture that you seem to be hiding behind.

Again this was posted to someone else. How solipsistic can one individual be who can't even acknowledge that there are people besides themselves in thread.

[Alive]

This will get shut down if participants continue to violate the TOS.

Please debate the issue and avoid making negative remarks about a person.

It’s not difficult.

Rather say, I think your opinion is wrong and this is why…rather than you are dishonest or a bad debater.

[LuftWaffle]

Yip, this is modern Christianity in a nutshell, I guess.
People can lie, deceive, misrepresent, twist words, grand stand and be a arrogant sollipsistic fools, but if somebody actually calls them any of those, then it's just too much to bear.

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Yip, this is modern Christianity in a nutshell, I guess.
People can lie, deceive, misrepresent, twist words, grand stand and be a arrogant sollipsistic fools, but if somebody actually calls them any of those, then it's just too much to bear.

What is relevant is the agreement made when joining. It’s akin to a promise or contract. A person gets to participate here as long as the terms are respected.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Well that's really interesting because when I asked whether you're pro-life you claimed it was a ridiculous question and appealed to the title of the forum. Do you now concede that the title of the forum doesn't in fact guarantee where someone lands on the pro-life issue?

I never even suggested that there would be a guarantee that all posters would be pro-life.  So are you admitting that you line up with the far left and support abortion?

Oh, good grief!  He saw literal things and described literal things, and he used symbolic language about some things.  So what.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

"What will be "no more" are the mortal resurrected bodies of the unsaved.  What neither John NOR the Bible says anywhere is that souls will cease to exist."
Ah, so only the bodies are destroyed in the lake of fire, the souls are not destroyed, even though Jesus said that both the body and soul will be destroyed in hell?

Could you back up your claim about what Jesus said with the verse that shows He actually said what you claim?  I know what Jesus said and He never said that.

btw, if He did, then His words contradict God's Word in Rev 20:10.  How come that never occurred to you?  Seems real obvious to me.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Please show me where in the verse it claims that God will destroy the bodies of the wicked but not the souls.

Rev 20:10 is very clear.  "They" will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  Since the body will be destroyed when entering the LOF, what else "will be tormented"?  Do you have a clue?

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Matt 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Is it your claim that Jesus is predominantly concerned with the bodies of people here, since he promises life to the one group and destruction to the unbelievers?

No.  Jesus is obviously and solely concerned with the souls of humanity and WHY He went to the cross;  so that those who trust in His finished work on the cross would be with Him in eternity.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Quit strawmanning my argument: 
Can capital punishment have varying degrees of duration, pain and suffering i.e. bearableness?
You're conflating the process of the punishment with the outcome of it.

Please don't kid me.  We're talking about capital punishment, which only affects the body.  Not the soul.  If you assume/presume/conjecture otherwise, you are just spitting in the wind.  (metaphor)  The "process" of capital punishment RESULTS in the "outcome" of it.  

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

I never claimed the process of the punishment is eternal and neither does the bible require such a view. The OUTCOME of the punishment is eternal.

What you still have not explained is how any punishment can LAST (eternally) when the soul isn't even there.  Seems you don't have an answer.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

The eternal punishment refers to a punishment that is permanent, irreversible and final. That's all.

Are you agreeing that the soul will experience the punishment eternally?

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
So if the unsaved are destroyed both body and soul, and never resurrected again like with the first death, the punishment is eternal.

Please re-phrase, as this seems like gibberish.  I strongly reject the "destruction of both soul and body" and you haven't refuted that.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

You still need to square the verse with your view since you believe that both the saved and the unsaved are immortal, and cannot be destroyed.

Well, that's quite a dishonest statement.  I never said "the unsaved are immortal".  Nothing even close to that.  If your understanding of English so poorly grasps what I say, I question whether further discussion could be profitable.

So I'll be clear AGAIN.  Souls don't die.  Bodies do.  But glorified immortal bodies don't.  Clear enough, or do you need more explanation?

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

So according to you both the saved and the unsaved live eternally albeit in different places.

Their souls do.  Kinda like what's in the brain.  Consciousness, conscience, emotions, etc.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Ok, so would losing your life and not partaking of that union with your savior in His kingdom then be worthy to be called a punishment?

You're still missing the point of Scripture.  Are you trying to?  Seems so.  Those who don't put their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross not only don't "partake in that union with the Savior", but they will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  I know you don't like that phrase, but it is biblical and real.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

The reason I ask these questions are because you keep avoiding the pointing and going after strawmen.

Nonsense.  You can't prove any of your claims.  Claims without evidence are empty.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Explain what it is that you think I believe since I keep saying God will kill and destroy the wicked and you keep claiming that I believe they will cease to exist.

Why don't you just admit that you agree that the souls of the unsaved will be tormented for eternity or that the souls of the unsaved will cease to exist when cast into the LOF.  That would clear everything up.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Do you believe that killing and destroying something is synonymous with causing it to cease to exist? 

Since you are about as unclear as possible when you mention 'killing' and 'destroying', I cannot possibly answer any question when you use those words.  But I've made myself clear enough.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

If not, then why when I speak of the mortality and death of the wicked, do you pretend that it means something it doesn't?

Due to your very unclear statements.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Show me where I used the words "ceasing to exist is a punishment".
C'mon let's see it.

The answer is in the questions I've posed.  Will you answer each of them in a clear and unambiguous way?  We'll see.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

  FreeGrace said:

Could you explain what you mean by "conditional immortality" and where you learned that from the Bible, if it was from the Bible?

Sure, immortality is just a way of saying possessing eternal life. Mortal would be the opposite of that.

Sheesh.  Very unclear again.  And you didn't address my question about what you think is "conditional immortality".  Your answer totally missed that question.

Do you have an answer?  And where in the Bible does it say that?

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

My belief is that immortality is granted only to the saved.

Well, I believe the Bible and not what you believe.  You haven't shown any of your beliefs coming from the Bible.

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

You want scriptural evidence for that, sure:

Joh 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The immortality is conditional upon belief in God. Those who believe are given immortality and those who don't remain moral and thus are subject to death.

Well, you've finally revealed the snag in your view.  "remain mortal" (what you really meant in your typo.  That refers ONLY to the physical body.  

So, John 3:16 doesn't in any way support your flawed view.  And Rev 20:10 refutes it clearly.

The souls of unbelievers will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever".  And there is NO OTHER WAY to understand it.  Eternal torment.  

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Again this was posted to someone else. How solipsistic can one individual be who can't even acknowledge that there are people besides themselves in thread.

Everything I posted, even though to another poster, stands.  The questions need to be answered, and evidence for your views must come from Scripture.  

[Michael37]

This is now a dead-end thread. Reports have accumulated citing ToS offences and disagreements on rinse and repeat so it's time for the persons concerned to take a break from bickering.