What land did God promise National Israel?

[Luther]

 

I believe there are two " types" of promises that God made regarding  "land" in the Old Testament:  physical and eternal. 

(Example) This is the physical land that God promised to Abrams seed:

Genesis 15:18-21

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

[19]The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

[20]And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

[21]And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

..........................................................

And next would be the eternal land that is promised to all in Christ:

 

Genesis 17:7-8

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[8]And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

" An everlasting covenant", like the "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31:33

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

[32]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

[33]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So God's promise of an eternal inheritance of "land" to Abraham and his seed is actually referring to the "seed of Christ" (Galatians 3:16). The promise is literally the kingdom of heaven. 

There are many other examples of this language found in the Old Testament. We just have to be led to look for it. 

So the question that remains is a serious one. It's actually a two part question:

If God's promise of land to the Israelites of the Old Testament was fulfilled  (which it was), where do we read of any future promises of (physical) land in the age of the new covenant? 

 

Edited January 12 by Luther
Added semi-colons

[WilliamL]

On 1/7/2025 at 5:48 PM, Luther said:

If God's promise of land to the Israelites of the Old Testament was fulfilled  (which it was), where do we read of any future promises of (physical) land in the age of the new covenant?

Seriously? For starters, Ezekiel 20:33ff., 34:11ff., and 39:25ff., to name just a few such OT prophecies. Many others in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah.

[Luther]

Just now, WilliamL said:

Seriously? For starters, Ezekiel 20:33ff., 34:11ff., and 39:25ff., to name just a few such OT prophecies. Many others in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah.

Oh I'm serious. We're just looking at it two different ways. Here's my understanding. God's ultimate plan was to show the world the need for a New Covenant in Christ's shed blood. All who come under this " lintel" will have eternal life. They're called Christians, and every Old Testament prophecy regarding eternal inheritance or promise of an eternal kingdom can only belong to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Why would God be speaking of a nation that rejected Him? He loves His people in whom He no longer sees sin. 

Psalms 32:1-2

(A Psalm of David, Maschil.) Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

[2]Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

 

God is not honoring two Covenants ( like modern churches believe when they place their hope of salvation on a nation of people and not the Lord Jesus). Like I said before and will continue to say, a great undermining occurred in Christian theology about 100 years ago ( Scofield and his financial backers) and the perpetrators are reaping the rewards as we speak. 

The point I'm making is this: Most Christians believe that there are future promises to " National Israel" by God. But after the veil of the temple was torn in two, the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, before He comes, because it will be too late for salvation after that.....

 

Matthew 25:10-13

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

[11]Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

[12]But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

[13]Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

And the teaching of an additional time period for humanity to get right with God ( After Christ returns) is probably the most deceptive teaching to come out of the modern churches. We must be ready NOW. 

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

every Old Testament prophecy regarding eternal inheritance or promise of an eternal kingdom can only belong to those who belong to Jesus Christ.

This is the heresy of Replacement Theology. Disproved by Paul in Romans 11:25-27

 

[AdHoc]

On 1/8/2025 at 1:48 AM, Luther said:

 

I believe there are two " types" of promises that God made regarding  "land" in the Old Testament physical and eternal. 

(Example) This is the physical land that God promised to Abrams seed.

Genesis 15:18-21

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

[19]The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

[20]And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

[21]And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

..........................................................

And next would be the eternal land that is promised to all in Christ:

 

Genesis 17:7-8

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[8]And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

" An everlasting covenant", like the "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31:33

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

[32]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

[33]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So God's promise of an eternal inheritance of "land" to Abraham and his seed is actually referring to the "seed of Christ" (Galatians 3:16). The promise is literally the kingdom of heaven. 

There are many other examples of this language found in the Old Testament. We just have to be led to look for it. 

So the question that remains is a serious one. It's actually a two part question:

If God's promise of land to the Israelites of the Old Testament was fulfilled  (which it was), where do we read of any future promises of (physical) land in the age of the new covenant?

 

I believe our brother @WilliamL is correct. The borders of the "Good Land" changed at last three times. The Millennial borders are found in Ezekiel and stretch from the "Great Sea" to the "East Sea" - the Med to the Arabian Gulf. The question in the title is an accurate one because you specified "National Israel".

To Abraham are promised three Seeds. Christ, the "sand as the sea shore" and the "stars of heaven". We see that converts to Christ constitute the "heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1) and in resurrection there is "celestial" glory (1st Cor.15:34-46). Romans 4:13 increases the domain of the seed of Abraham to "the whole world". But this is called "the Kingdom of Heaven" and for this kingdom rebirth is needed. For National Israel one must be born to Jacob and the men circumcised. For the whole earth one must be born of the Holy Spirit and Baptized.

[AdHoc]

16 minutes ago, Luther said:

Oh I'm serious. We're just looking at it two different ways. Here's my understanding. God's ultimate plan was to show the world the need for a New Covenant in Christ's shed blood. All who come under this " lintel" will have eternal life. They're called Christians, and every Old Testament prophecy regarding eternal inheritance or promise of an eternal kingdom can only belong to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Why would God be speaking of a nation that rejected Him? He loves His people in whom He no longer sees sin. 

Psalms 32:1-2

(A Psalm of David, Maschil.) Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

[2]Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

 

God is not honoring two Covenants ( like modern churches believe when they place their hope of salvation on a nation of people and not the Lord Jesus). Like I said before and will continue to say, a great undermining occurred in Christian theology about 100 years ago ( Scofield and his financial backers) and the perpetrators are reaping the rewards as we speak. 

The point I'm making is this: Most Christians believe that there are future promises to " National Israel" by God. But after the veil of the temple was torn in two, the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, before He comes, because it will be too late for salvation after that.....

 

Matthew 25:10-13

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

[11]Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

[12]But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

[13]Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

And the teaching of an additional time period for humanity to get right with God ( After Christ returns) is probably the most deceptive teaching to come out of the modern churches. We must be ready NOW. 

 

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This is the heresy of Replacement Theology. Disproved by Paul in Romans 11:25-27

 

I would like to propose a third variant.

Galatians 3:14-17 says that men's covenants stand and cannot be annulled. and that how much more a Covenant made with God. These verses, together with Gal.4:24 say that God mad TWO covenants - one with Abraham and which is called the "Covenant of PROMISE", and one 430 years later which is called the Covenant of LAW. Neither Covenant have any stipulation whatsoever of believing in a Messiah. The first is based solely on circumcision and the second on about 615 Laws and ordinances. the dilemma facing God (perish the thought) is that the first Covenant PROMISES the Good Land to the circumcised seed of Abraham, and the second Covenant EJECTS these inhabitants if the break the Law. God has a Covenant, that He made, which guarantees the Land "as an everlasting possession", while in another Covenant, made by Him as well, He is obliged to eject them from this Land.

Abraham faced four challenges to His FAITH, which, for brevity's sake I will not go into. Suffice to say his refusal to be blessed by the hand of the heathen was the major part. God, in appreciation of Abraham's refusal to partake of the WORLD led God to change the inheritance for those who had FAITH to the whole world (Rom.4:13). God, through Jesus Christ, offered National Israel this new and enlarged Kingdom. But seeing as God's Name and Reputation were involved in this Kingdom the condition became more stringent.

Instead of birth to Jacob, one needed a heavenly birth (Jn.3:3). Instead of "circumcision" the whole body was to be "cut off" in "Baptism" (Col.2:10-12) - a sign of being terminated in death waters. Further, the aspirant co-king in this Kingdom (OUT) of Heaven had to have an intimate relationship with the Great King, AND he/she had to show, over the years, righteousness and faithfulness in God's affairs (Talents, Pounds and Virgins). For this group of people of the New Birth, the Law would be counterproductive. So God does two things. He takes Christ's lineage to make these "new-birthers" "Seed of Abraham" (Gal.3:29) and thus HEIRS, and He nails the Law to the cross with Christ (Eph.2:15). God creates a fully New Entity for this Kingdom, but dos not do away wit what remains. After all ... a Covenant is a covenant.

Thus, when the time comes when the New Man is ripe and complete, God will send His Son as Head of an heavenly army and King of a New Regime on earth. Those with the right conditions will INHERIT the earth. Israel presents a special case because they have an additional Covenant. The solution to Israel takes up the whole Old Testament - AND three Chapters of Romans. What is PROMISED is that although Israel remain blind and hard to the end (they are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF - TILL the Gentile problem is solved at Armageddon, they will have their sins forgiven BY MERCY ALONE and BASED on 1st John 2:2. Jesus' death is full payment to the sins or trespasses of the world, and God may apply it via FAITH or by PROMISE.

Thus, when Christ returns we hae the earth and its Nations RULED by the New Man. Even the Nation of Israel is ruled by BELIEVERS - David (Jer.30:9) and the Twelve Apostles (Mat.19:28). Israel will be host to Emmanuel (Christ) and SERVE Christ as host-nation. And the Nations will be subject to Christ's co-kings ruling with an iron rod (Lk.19:17-19, Rev.2:26-27). Israel have their Covenant of Law made NEW (Jer.31:31-33). What is new is not the Laws. What is new is that the Laws will be written INSIDE the Jew, and he will receive a new spirit and heart. The PROMISES of the Old Testament ARE STILL ISRAEL'S. they are still the first Nation and Privileged. But they FORFEIT the Kingdom (OUT) of Heaven ON EARTH.

The Church INHERIT the earth. Israel inherits the Good Land. The Church, by the rebirth via Christ, are made HEIRS to Abraham's PROMISES (Gal.3:29) but are NEVER under Law. Israel remain under Law but receive these Laws into their being and receive anew heart and a new spirit.

Israel's future is VITAL TO GOD'S REPUTATION. He forgives Israel for HIS sake (Ps.79:9, etc).

[Luther]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

This is the heresy of Replacement Theology. Disproved by Paul in Romans 11:25-27

 

Well then if you are a Christian then you are taking God's promises for you and giving them to someone else not born of God. 

I don't think 3 verses cherry picked out of Romans 11 is going to disprove anything. Do you realize what the word  "So" means in v.26? It means " in this manner". " In this manner" ...." ALL" Israel shall be saved. Think about it. Every person in the nation of Israel? Even the ones that died rejecting Christ? Is this a special salvation program that we don't know about? What is ALL Israel?

So in verse 27, WHAT COVENANT?

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

[32]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

[33]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

" New covenant"..... literally the New Covenant in Christ's shed blood.

"the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah".......So is anyone going to say that the house of Israel and Judah aren't symbolic of all in Jesus Christ? Then you would have to say that this "New Covenant" isn't for Christians. This is just a " new covenant" with Israel. Sorry, no such thing. 

"and will be their God, and they shall be my people."..............Now WHO are going to be God's people? If you are a Christian, I hope you believe you are.

Compare Jeremiah 30 with Hebrews 8:

 

Hebrews 8:1,6-10

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

[6]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

[7]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

[8]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

[9]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

[10]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jews and Gentiles are part of the same covenant, the NEW Covenant, and we have One High priest, The Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's go to the verse you almost posted, v.28:

Romans 11:28

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

" they" = The nation of Israel 

"the election"= the remnant chosen by grace:

Romans 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

ALL Israel= All who are chosen in Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham:

Galatians 3:28-29

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[29]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Can you see it?

 

[Indentured Servant]

"...if the root is holy, the branches are too, but if some of the branches (Israel) were broken off, and you, being a wild olive (gentile), were grafted in among [Israel] and became partaker with [Israel] of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches (Israel); but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches (Israelites) were broken off so that I (a gentile) might be grafted in.”. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith.

Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (Israelites), He will not spare you (gentiles), either.

Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to [Israel] who fell, severity, but to [gentiles], God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And [Israel] also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.  For if [gentiles] were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will [Israel] who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, (so that you will not be wise in your own estimation), that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and, so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH [Israel], WHEN I TAKE AWAY [Israel's] SINS.”

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice [Israel is] beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For just as [gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of [Israel's] disobedience, so [Israel] also now ha been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to [gentiles], [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.

For God has shut up all in disobedience (Israel and gentiles) so that He may show mercy to all. 

          - from Paul's letter to gentiles,                   as found in Romans 11:16b-32

 

 

[other one]

[Luther]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

I would like to propose a third variant.

Galatians 3:14-17 says that men's covenants stand and cannot be annulled. and that how much more a Covenant made with God. These verses, together with Gal.4:24 say that God mad TWO covenants - one with Abraham and which is called the "Covenant of PROMISE", and one 430 years later which is called the Covenant of LAW. Neither Covenant have any stipulation whatsoever of believing in a Messiah. The first is based solely on circumcision and the second on about 615 Laws and ordinances. the dilemma facing God (perish the thought) is that the first Covenant PROMISES the Good Land to the circumcised seed of Abraham, and the second Covenant EJECTS these inhabitants if the break the Law. God has a Covenant, that He made, which guarantees the Land "as an everlasting possession", while in another Covenant, made by Him as well, He is obliged to eject them from this Land.

Abraham faced four challenges to His FAITH, which, for brevity's sake I will not go into. Suffice to say his refusal to be blessed by the hand of the heathen was the major part. God, in appreciation of Abraham's refusal to partake of the WORLD led God to change the inheritance for those who had FAITH to the whole world (Rom.4:13). God, through Jesus Christ, offered National Israel this new and enlarged Kingdom. But seeing as God's Name and Reputation were involved in this Kingdom the condition became more stringent.

Instead of birth to Jacob, one needed a heavenly birth (Jn.3:3). Instead of "circumcision" the whole body was to be "cut off" in "Baptism" (Col.2:10-12) - a sign of being terminated in death waters. Further, the aspirant co-king in this Kingdom (OUT) of Heaven had to have an intimate relationship with the Great King, AND he/she had to show, over the years, righteousness and faithfulness in God's affairs (Talents, Pounds and Virgins). For this group of people of the New Birth, the Law would be counterproductive. So God does two things. He takes Christ's lineage to make these "new-birthers" "Seed of Abraham" (Gal.3:29) and thus HEIRS, and He nails the Law to the cross with Christ (Eph.2:15). God creates a fully New Entity for this Kingdom, but dos not do away wit what remains. After all ... a Covenant is a covenant.

Thus, when the time comes when the New Man is ripe and complete, God will send His Son as Head of an heavenly army and King of a New Regime on earth. Those with the right conditions will INHERIT the earth. Israel presents a special case because they have an additional Covenant. The solution to Israel takes up the whole Old Testament - AND three Chapters of Romans. What is PROMISED is that although Israel remain blind and hard to the end (they are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF - TILL the Gentile problem is solved at Armageddon, they will have their sins forgiven BY MERCY ALONE and BASED on 1st John 2:2. Jesus' death is full payment to the sins or trespasses of the world, and God may apply it via FAITH or by PROMISE.

Thus, when Christ returns we hae the earth and its Nations RULED by the New Man. Even the Nation of Israel is ruled by BELIEVERS - David (Jer.30:9) and the Twelve Apostles (Mat.19:28). Israel will be host to Emmanuel (Christ) and SERVE Christ as host-nation. And the Nations will be subject to Christ's co-kings ruling with an iron rod (Lk.19:17-19, Rev.2:26-27). Israel have their Covenant of Law made NEW (Jer.31:31-33). What is new is not the Laws. What is new is that the Laws will be written INSIDE the Jew, and he will receive a new spirit and heart. The PROMISES of the Old Testament ARE STILL ISRAEL'S. they are still the first Nation and Privileged. But they FORFEIT the Kingdom (OUT) of Heaven ON EARTH.

The Church INHERIT the earth. Israel inherits the Good Land. The Church, by the rebirth via Christ, are made HEIRS to Abraham's PROMISES (Gal.3:29) but are NEVER under Law. Israel remain under Law but receive these Laws into their being and receive anew heart and a new spirit.

Israel's future is VITAL TO GOD'S REPUTATION. He forgives Israel for HIS sake (Ps.79:9, etc).

You said : "Israel's future is VITAL TO GOD'S REPUTATION. He forgives Israel for HIS sake (Ps.79:9, etc)."

Christianity was Israel's future. That's why Christ came. To save many Israelites as well as everyone else in the world. 

1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Somehow we have to get past this crazy teaching that a nation of people are going to be saved based upon their former claim to fame as being the ones who rejected Christ. There's no other way but through Christ, in the New Covenant. The Old covenant is done away with, and that would include the people that continue to honor it.

But what many of you fail to realize is that the jews of today have nothing to do with the religion of the Israelites of the past. They follow their own man made religion called Judaism, which is not what Old Testament Israel followed. God no longer has anything to do with the Old covenant. He certainly has nothing to do with a religion that puts their own teachings above the Bible. 

Hebrews 8:5-7

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

[6]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

[7]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.