Unravelling Revelation

[Indentured Servant]

On 2/15/2025 at 6:32 PM, Deborah_ said:

Numbers, then, have symbolic meaning in Revelation. They shouldn’t be taken literally! The seven churches stand for all the churches; the 144,000 saints stand for all of us, and so on.

Even symbolic numbers have literal application.

12= 

...sons of Israel 

...disciples of Jesus

7=

...Spirits of God

...Messenger to 7 churches 

40=

...years in wilderness (Israel)

...days in wilderness (Jesus)

 

Do we question the literal reference to the symbolic numbers here?

Of course not, and we should not question any part of scripture that uses symbolic numbers or language.

Symbols don't require that we disregard what they refer to...

If 144,000 people are specifically identified, there is no precedent that allows us to consider this purely symbolic and not a literal number for the specific group of people it mentions;

If Scripture repeats "1000 years," expect that this is literal;

If Scripture uses a symbolic number to mention a period of time, a number of people, or any other thing or event, you can expect, that BECAUSE the symbolic number has a meaning, its application in scripture is literal.

 

[DeighAnn]

How fun.   My beliefs in a nut-shell so vastly different from the rest but that has verses for all of it without any 'it really means'... 

Take a piece of paper and write on it and roll it up and seal it.  Write upon another piece of paper, wrap it around the first and seal it.  Continue on until there are 7 pages, all sealed, all now ready to be opened, one at a time, that's one way that solves the problem.  The outer page would even show the writing on the outside....

Next,

What do we get from WORDS written on scrolls? INFORMATION, right?   The information can speak to the past the present or the future.  It can be straightforward, symbolic, etc...but whatever way it is presented, IT is the only truth we all have to work with.  

If the 7 seals have not yet been opened, then HOW do we know what is written on them?   How are we discussing them right now, if they hadn't been unsealed when the Lamb was found worthy?  

And how could anyone be 'sealed' before the four winds are loosed, if the book still wasn't UNSEALED for that sealing?  That's just basic common sense, right? 

What are we actually given in the Book? 
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 

For those who demand it is written in exact order the events will take place from this point on, just simply give book, chapter and verse where GOD words says it and I will happily stand corrected or let's agree it is nothing more than another conclusion of man, a tradition passed down, something only believed because a doctrine depends upon  it and or an assumption.... but not a TRUTH that can be found in GODS OWN WORDS and skip everything that might be linked to that. 


In Rev 2 and 3 we get the run down on how things have been going and by including 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come,
it covers the churches till His return...

If anyone can show me how HEREAFTER is only from that point forward only, I'd like to read that myself because I am positive that 60 years after His death, He didn't do it all again, and that is what would have to be 'your belief' for that to be true.  

So, John is taken to heaven, and shown GOD sitting upon HIS THRONE, singular.  No Christ, no Lamb, just GOD ALMIGHTY, upon HIS Throne, amongst 24 thrones elders with crowns sitting upon thrones, beasts all around Him a bit of a description of heaven at that time.

Next, we are given the past event, not future, of the Lamb slain, which brings us to the point of Christ sitting at the right hand of GOD

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Up until Jesus was crucified, He was the Son of God, the Son of Man but NOT YET the Lamb of God but once He was...  

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Taken from the Greek  

Rev 5:9  And they are singing a song new, saying, Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it, because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation 

and You have made THEM to the God of US, a kingdom and priests; and THEY will reign upon the earth.  
 

Just for reference from biblehub. 
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H1931 (הוּא, hu): Often translated as "he," "she," or "it," similar in function to "αὐτός" in Greek.

- H1992 (הֵמָּה, hemmah): Used for "they" or "them," corresponding to the plural usage of "αὐτός."

Usage: The Greek pronoun "αὐτός" (autos) is a versatile term used extensively in the New Testament. It functions primarily as a pronoun of emphasis or identity, often translated as "he," "she," "it," "they," or "them." It can also be used reflexively as "himself," "herself," "itself," or "themselves," and sometimes denotes "the same." Its usage is crucial for understanding the subject or object of a sentence, providing clarity and emphasis in the narrative.




Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H595 אָנֹכִי (anoki) – I, me
- H589 אֲנִי (ani) – I, me

Usage: The Greek pronoun "ἐγώ" (egó) is used to denote the first person singular, "I" or "me," emphasizing the speaker's identity or role in the context. It is often used in the New Testament to highlight personal involvement, responsibility, or authority. In many instances, it is employed by Jesus to assert His identity and mission, as seen in the "I am" statements in the Gospel of John.


In 96AD or so THE BOOK IS UNSEALED because John is told to write it down for us to read and study and to have all that information 'sealed' in our tiny little brains.   And what info are we given in 96AD that continues on until today?  

So, in a nut shell, ALL THE SEALS HAVE ALREADY BEEN OPENED.  Now all we have to do is figure out IF any of the information given us has come to pass.  Have we been sealed? 

And I looked and behold, a horse white, and the [one] sitting on it having a bow (toxon) and WAS GIVEN to him a crown, and he went forth OVERCOMING and to overcome.  

My vote is for THIS SEAL to not only have been opened but also for it to have been in effect since the Lamb first opened it.  Exact same thing as we are told in Peter
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.",



As for the second one, who will take peace from the earth and they will slay one another, I am going with Yes on this seal also, not only to have been opened but instrumental in my understanding of what is taking place on earth today, and not something that will ONLY be taking place during Satans actual time here.  

As for the 3rd one, if you are not employing the 'be wiser than the serpent' then it is almost a guarantee you are being taken advantage of, but such is the life of a sheep being led to slaughter...a servant is a servant for a reason....we must remember Judgment Day is coming.   So, another YES on this seal opened and action taking place.

4th one, no need to even speak to this one, is there?  Death and deception famines and all the rest have most certainly been happening upon the earth.  All this really helps me to understand how DIFFERENT the world would have been had Jesus not been rejected.  This book would never have had to have been unsealed at all! 

Since I BELIEVE that there is no 'death' for those who come to faith while they yet live and we just go from this body to the celestial one at the first death (the terrestrial body one), all those who died the first death are ALREADY in their bodies in heaven and are just waiting for 'a time little' until the 'last week' of the 70 to take place...till the time of the gentiles is fulfilled aka all Christians accounted for.

Which brings me to the 6th seal....the tribulation of Satan on earth, when Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven for a short season, the time that KEEPS us from the return of Christ and our being gathered to him at His return...which I DON'T BELIEVE has taken place because

there has been no 'great' earthquake, the sun has not 'become black as sackcloth' nor the moon whole become like blood.  There has been no beast rise from the sea with 10 kings, no 'head' has suffered 'a deadly wound' that has been healed, nor a false prophet claiming to be God with supernatural signs and wonders with the whole world is worshipping, nor any image set up to be worshipped, so no falling away but most of all there has not been seen 'the cloven tongue' upon anyone given up to death for a 10 day trial, by which the Holy Spirit has spoken, nor have there been two witnesses with supernatural abilities, nor have we seen heaven departed like a scroll, and we still await the day when the 2 witnesses will be killed and our two realms will become one, the time when men will wish to hid from the coming of Christ with the angels by having mountains fall upon them, when all flesh and blood bodies of the spiritually dead will die their first death, leaving only the 'living' to watch the 'dead' rise for them to see them transformed and gathered to Christ for the Lords Day to begin....

THAT is when the seventh angel sounds and THAT is when the bowls of the wrath of God will be DUMPED out and the day of the Lord will begin in which His foot hits the Mount and it cleaves a valley....  
 

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Indentured Servant said:

Even symbolic numbers have literal application.

12= 

...sons of Israel 

...disciples of Jesus

7=

...Spirits of God

...Messenger to 7 churches 

40=

...years in wilderness (Israel)

...days in wilderness (Jesus)

 

Do we question the literal reference to the symbolic numbers here?

Of course not, and we should not question any part of scripture that uses symbolic numbers or language.

Symbols don't require that we disregard what they refer to...

If 144,000 people are specifically identified, there is no precedent that allows us to consider this purely symbolic and not a literal number for the specific group of people it mentions;

If Scripture repeats "1000 years," expect that this is literal;

If Scripture uses a symbolic number to mention a period of time, a number of people, or any other thing or event, you can expect, that BECAUSE the symbolic number has a meaning, its application in scripture is literal.

 

Hi @Indentured Servant Some ppl think the Millennium is synbolic, but I don't see why it can't be literal........

[The Light]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

You hold that the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel. You have not brought one scripture for this. When shown that Israel did not do a single thing that the woman does, you ignore it. Okay, this is your right. 

What are you talking about. I addressed every single point that you made......I think.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

But if we take the facst, another picture emerges. The picture is of a heavenly mother who is on earth and who will rule (having a crown). Clothes, or a "garment" is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). She has THREE different seeds; 1. The Man-Child, 2. those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - Christians, and 3. those who keep the commandments of God - the REMNANT of Israel predicted in Romans 9 and 11.

The woman is Israel. The remnant of her seed is the 12 tribes across the earth. They keep the commandments of God............and I have already shown you that we should not be ignorant of the fact that blindness will be removed from part of Israel when the fullness of the gentiles comes in.

I don't know why you fail to accept that the remnant of the womans seed is the 12 tribes across the earth. Do you think those 144,000 first fruits mean nothing?

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This constellation appears three more times.

1. In Galatians the Church is CONTRASTED with Israel - except in ONE VERSE - Galatians 4:26. There, the Church under grace, and Israel under Law HAVE THE SAME MOTHER

2. In Romans 11 - the olive Tree, which I will explain below.

3. New Jerusalem. She is a WIFE. The Church is the Wall and Israel are the Gates.

In THREE of FOUR CASES where the KINGDOM of Christ is alluded to, New Jerusalem is "MOTHER OF US BOTH". I propose that the woman of Revelation 12 is New Jerusalem while unperfected and in the Great Tribulation

I do not have the ability to follow the relevance of the point you are making.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You make the Olive Tree Israel. But the parable says that Israel is the BRANCHES. Furthermore,scripture says that a TREE in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). How can Israel be in the Kingdom if they were banned by the Lord in Matthew 21:43?

I don't make the olive tree Israel. They are the natural branchs......that will be regrafted.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Is not the Olive Tree Christ's Kingdom with Israel cut out now? Are not Israel restored again AFTER the Church is finished (Act.15:14-16)? But is it not true that Israel will have David ( a believer - Jer.30:9) and the 12 Apostles (believers - Matt.19:28) ruling over them? So Israel could never be the Olive Tree. But because Emmanuel lives in Jerusalem in the coming age, and he Nations must visit the Lord annually (Zech.14:16), Israel may SERVE the Lord.

In these four cases we have a SOURCE who is heavenly, but on earth. The source will rule. The source has the glory of God. The source is a Mother in three of them, a Root in the fourth, and her seed make up three entities of Christ's Kingdom;
1. The Man-Child - the overcomers (Rev.2:27) who will rule
2. The Jewish Remnant - who fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5
3. The born again bulk of Christianity - who will serve (Rev.7:15)

This way, the Woman of Revlation 12 fulfills EVERY facit of New Jerusalem.

Ok. What I don't understand is why you don't realize that the seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth that will be regrafted when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation. The great tribulation is about the people of Daniel.

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

And now for the contents of the scroll...

 

The breaking of the first four seals reveals the famous “four horsemen of the Apocalypse’ - Conquest, War, Famine and Death. These forces have been raging through the world for the whole of the last two millennia. They cause much suffering, but this is inevitable - these are the birth-pangs of the new age (Mark 13:8).

Here is the first four seals. They are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

The fifth seal reveals the martyrs who have laid down their lives for God and His truth, whose blood has been poured out as an offering to God (see II Timothy 4:6). They appeal to God, the Judge, for vindication - for proof that they have not died in vain. But they must wait for the world’s iniquity to be complete before they can inherit the earth - just as the Israelites had to wait for the iniquity of the Amorites to be complete before they could inherit their land (Genesis 15:16). Thus we are warned that persecution and martyrdom will continue for as long as this age lasts; but we are also reassured that God remains in control.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

When the sixth seal is broken, the Day of the Lord arrives! The entire universe will be convulsed, and the very fabric of the earth will disintegrate. So those who have lived in a state of rebellion against God will be reduced to a state of utter terror; they will attempt to run and hide, but there will be nowhere for them to go!

The 6th seal occurs immediately after the tribulation and is the gathering from heaven and earth when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

But before the seventh seal is broken, John is shown the same events from a different perspective (chapter 7), to provide him (and us) with some reassurance about the fate of God’s people during these turbulent times. First he sees a tidal wave of judgement (the four winds are probably equivalent to the four horsemen) about to engulf the world - but it will be delayed until the righteous can be protected. For God is never indiscriminate in His judgements; He will spare those who belong to Him. who display His mark of ownership (see Ezekiel 9:3-6). That mark, or seal, is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,14). And we who are sealed are also counted, to ensure that none will be lost! Like the original twelve tribes in the wilderness (see Numbers 1), we are counted as soldiers ready to go into battle - a vast spiritual army, commissioned to invade and conquer the nations! 

The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord.....the one year wrath of God. It is the day of vengeance on an evil unbelieving world.

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

 

144,000 is, of course, a symbolic number! 

There is not a chance in China that the 144,000 is a symbolic number. It is an exact number of male virgins who are first fruits of the second harvest.

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

 

In reality, as John is now shown (Revelation 7:9), we are a vast multi-ethnic multitude! He sees God’s people at the very end of their pilgrimage, as they celebrate their final gathering together in the great fulfilment of the Feast of Tabernacles. They have battled through temptation and persecution, and remained faithful; they have been cleansed from sin and made holy by the blood of Christ; and they are now safely home in the loving embrace of their heavenly Father.

No. The multitude seen in Rev 7:9 contains believers that are in heaven for the marriage supper. They are in heaven during the one year wrath of God which is the 7th seal. They return with the armies of heaven at Armageddon.

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

When at last the final seal is broken (Revelation 8:1), it reveals… nothing.

 

The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord.....the one year wrath of God. It is the day of vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. 

The seventh seal contains the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath.

Edited February 19 by The Light

[The Light]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

If the 7 seals have not yet been opened, then HOW do we know what is written on them?   How are we discussing them right now, if they hadn't been unsealed when the Lamb was found worthy?  

We know what is written because John had a vision of the seals being opened. None of the seals are opened at this time.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 

And how could anyone be 'sealed' before the four winds are loosed, if the book still wasn't UNSEALED for that sealing?  That's just basic common sense, right? 

John wrote down His vision. That's how we have the book of Revelation.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

In 96AD or so THE BOOK IS UNSEALED because John is told to write it down for us to read and study and to have all that information 'sealed' in our tiny little brains.   And what info are we given in 96AD that continues on until today?  

The book was not unsealed in 96AD. John had a vision of the unsealing of the book. None of the seals are currently open.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 

So, in a nut shell, ALL THE SEALS HAVE ALREADY BEEN OPENED. 

So, in a nut shell, NONE OF THE SEALS ARE OPENED AS OF YET.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Now all we have to do is figure out IF any of the information given us has come to pass.  Have we been sealed? 

My vote is for THIS SEAL to not only have been opened but also for it to have been in effect since the Lamb first opened it. 
 

If you are born again, you have been sealed.

The 144,000 from the 12 tribes are sealed when they are born again.

[Indentured Servant]

37 minutes ago, farouk said:

Some ppl think the Millennium is symbolic, but I don't see why it can't be literal.

There has been a trend for decades to perceive biblical numbers as merely symbolic. I recall hearing such statements as far back as the late eighties.

Then we had theologians and teachers tell us that numbers have some mystical significance, and that trained us to focus on the "numerology" of scripture rather than seeing numbers for what they are....

[farouk]

On 2/16/2025 at 11:55 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi @Marilyn C So where is this chart from?

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Language is given by God to transmit ideas. It has rules to ensure that the idea is the same every time you apply that grammar. A "SCROLL" is a document that opens as you unroll it. It is impossible to reveal its total contents in one go. So also with a book. It reveals page by page. Here are some identical statements.

The Scrolls were more like this (see Below), pulled apart from both sides. The only Metaphoric reason God would use a Seal is to show its Sealed up, and one seal would do that, but to be SEALED UP means it can not be read from at all, else why use the reference right? So, one seal would do it but Kings used three Wax Signet Seals sealed with the Kings unique wax  signet seal ring, if one was off it still was still sealed, if all three were off the messenger would be on dire trouble. The message was thus not sealed up. God using 7 Seals merely suggests he is saying I have Divinely and Completely SEALED UP this Scroll of Judgments, and this wud be the only reason to use a message of a Sealed Up Scroll, so as to is to suggest that Judgment will fall once all the Seals are off. 

This was the Jewish Scroll type the red from in the Synagogues, why says it had 7 Seals? To show it will not be opened until the 7th Seal is off, THUS.........its elementary (as Holmes said to Mr. Watson) as per unto why the 7th Seal only comes off in Rev. 8 AND why there is 30 Minutes of Silence (it is a Sad occasion or REVERENCE and thus not a joyous occasion at all) as the 7th Seal is opened. It is also why we see Israel (144,000) being Sealed with and by the holy spirit in Rev. 7 while the angel is specifically told to HOLD UP the Four Winds (judgment) which hurts the Earth, Seas and Trees, which happens where? In Rev. 8, so if it came in Rev. 6 why say HOLD UP the judgments to hit the earth, sea and trees in Rev. 7? The problem is (In did it for 25 plus years) we look at the book of Revelation and the timelines do not seem to fit, so it throws our equilibrium off, thus we can not see things we out to see, God created it as a severe puzzle on purpose, to promote intrigue and study, and to keep the truth from those who can not hear the spirit. If Rev. 6 simply said God's Sealed Judgments are bound up until we loose them, then in Rev. 7 He simply said, the 1/3 of Israel will be saved here and flee Judea, so hold up my Wrath until that happens and then in Rev. 8 we see the Wrath coming. So, the book being hard to understand leads us  to overthink it all, we wouldn't be in the mindset that the Seals are a part of God's Judgments if it was spoken unto us in plain langue instead of God-speak, where we get codes and metaphores.

 

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Yes, COME AND SEE [The Future Events to come]. Via the 7 Trumps Angels sound them to bring them via the 7 Vials Angels pour them out. But here were are only told by one of the Four Covering Bests to COME AND SEE

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He opened the sixth seal AND there was a pause until the seventh was opened

Yes, because the 7th Seal RELEASES God's Wrath thus we get a silence  mention, like a reverent funeral. 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, farouk said:

Hi @Marilyn C So where is this chart from?

My Pastor made it many years ago. Thanks for being interested and asking.

I set it out with pictures and headings etc.