Unravelling Revelation

[Deborah_]

Revelation 4 & 5

These two chapters form an extended introduction to the first main vision (the seven seals), and also set the scene for the whole of the remainder of the book. John is no longer on earth; in his vision he has been transported into heaven (Revelation 4:1), from where he can see events on earth from God’s perspective.

As with the vision of Christ in chapter 1, the description of heaven is symbolic, not photographic. It’s rather like the diagrams of atomic structure that you find in school science textbooks: the electrons appear to have have tidy circular orbits around the central nucleus, and the whole thing looks very much like a miniature solar system. But atoms aren’t really like that. The diagram isn’t giving you a picture of “what an atom looks like”; it’s intended to help you understand the relationships between the different components and how they ‘work’. It’s the same kind of thing here: God’s throne is depicted as being at the centre of heaven, with concentric circles of “four living creatures”, “24 elders” and thousands of angels around it. But this isn’t a “picture” of what we would see if we were actually in heaven; it’s explaining the relationship of everything (creation, church and angels) to God, using pictorial language mostly drawn from the Old Testament.

What does it tell us? That God is at the very centre of all things. That He reigns (He's sitting on His glorious throne), and that His throne room is far more magnificent than Caesar’s! God Himself is indescribable and undescribed, but all the various manifestations of His presence in times past (the theophany at Sinai, the visions of Isaiah and Ezekiel) are fused together in the description of His glory. Yet at the same time the prominence of the rainbow, the symbol of His grace (see Genesis 9:13), makes Heaven a welcoming place.

Immediately surrounding the throne are four “living creatures”. They represent Creation, which continuously declares the glory of God (Psalm 19:1,2). Around them is a circle of 24 thrones, on which sit “elders”. These represent the New Creation, the people of God, who reign in the heavenly places even while still on earth (Ephesians 2:6,7). Why 24 of them? 24 is 12 + 12, which stands for both Israel and the Church, united under the new covenant. All join together with Nature and with the hosts of angels in constant worship of their Creator.

The Holy Spirit, represented by a seven-branched lampstand, is located immediately in front of the throne of God. Jesus makes a dramatic entrance halfway through the vision, as if returning to Heaven after His ascension (Revelation 5:5,6). Yet He appears right at the centre of the throne of God, and his seven horns and seven eyes indicate omnipotence and omniscience. And the hosts of heaven worship Him along with the Father. Have you got the message? Jesus is God! But at the same time He is subordinate to the Father, and receives authority from Him (Revelation 5:7).

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

The great tribulation is Christians being hunted and killed that do not take the mark. The tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for a harvest. The 7th seal is the wrath of God........The Day of the Lord. They are NOT the same thing.

 

I understand that the Great Tribulation is God's reaction to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15.

According to Revelation 6:12-17 it is the SIXTH seal that is the wrath of the Lamb. It is opened in heaven as Romans 1:18 predicts. But, no doubt, the seven trumpets cause tribulation even though it is not explicitly mentioned. "Wrath" is the emotion God feels while "Tribulation" is what men feel. It was "Tribulation" that brought sunburn, thirst and tears in Revelation 7.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I understand that the Great Tribulation is God's reaction to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15.

According to Revelation 6:12-17 it is the SIXTH seal that is the wrath of the Lamb. It is opened in heaven as Romans 1:18 predicts. But, no doubt, the seven trumpets cause tribulation even though it is not explicitly mentioned. "Wrath" is the emotion God feels while "Tribulation" is what men feel. It was "Tribulation" that brought sunburn, thirst and tears in Revelation 7.

7 seals means its not opened at the 6th seal, it just drives me up a wall that we get a 7 sealed book, and people do not grasp that nothing happens until the 7th seal is loosed. 

Its like a King with three wax signet seals announcing the messages content before he opens the 3rd Seal. He can not do that, but alas Jesus/God can do that, BUT.......it can only be referencing a future Judgment, Jesus just knows the future, the 7th seal has to be opened before Judgment can fall, WHY would you use the Seals Metaphor if it was a judgment instead of a set of seals tat seals up the judgements? 

Oh well brother, its just another day, trying to rescue a sick kitty, touch and go.  When God answered my prayer 10 or so years ago as to why we can not agree on these things as a end time church. He was (of course) spot on. He was like "Ron, you guys already know it all"

That is the only reason we as a church do not see everything the same way, its not being filtered by the holy spirit, and being honest, that can be the only answer. A that point, a forgot most everything I knew on prophecy, or rather, I simply asked God to show me when I was wrong, and He does that often, thus I became clued in.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I understand that the Great Tribulation is God's reaction to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15.

Well that's not correct. The great tribulation is Satan killing believers that will not take the mark. The tribulation is against Christians. God's wrath is God's vengeance against an evil unbelieving world.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

According to Revelation 6:12-17 it is the SIXTH seal that is the wrath of the Lamb.

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The 7th seal is the one-year wrath of God.............which is the day of the Lord............containing the trumpets and vials of wrath

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

It is opened in heaven as Romans 1:18 predicts. But, no doubt, the seven trumpets cause tribulation even though it is not explicitly mentioned. "Wrath" is the emotion God feels while "Tribulation" is what men feel. It was "Tribulation" that brought sunburn, thirst and tears in Revelation 7.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Sound familar. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes and sends his angels to gather the elect. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. During that time God sends His wrath. Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

[The Light]

40 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

7 seals means its not opened at the 6th seal, it just drives me up a wall that we get a 7 sealed book, and people do not grasp that nothing happens until the 7th seal is loosed. 

 

John said ...............

when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

I don't know how to get ahold of John and tell him is wrong. He says one seal is opened........rider on the white horse. John obviously doesn't realize that you claim all the seals need to be opened before anything can happen. If you claim that all the seals have to be opened before anything can happen and John claims that the events happen as each seal is opened............How do we correct his error?

 

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

John said ...............

when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Yes, come and see.......................THE FUTURE...................Notice, the Trumps are SOUNDED by Angels and the Vials are POURED OUT by Angels, the Seals are Jesus opening up the scroll of Judgments, and thus COME AND SEE [what will befall the world when  the 7th Seal releases the Trumpet Judgments].

8 hours ago, The Light said:

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

The horses are taken from Zechariah chapters 1-6, just like Rev. 17 is taken from Dan. 5, by God who wrote the book of Revelation. The GREAT SWORD of Conquering happens after the Jews flee in Rev. 7 and AFTER in Rev. 7 the Angels are told to HOLD UP God's Wrath until the 144,000 are sealed/saved & protected, HOLD UP the four winds that hurt what? The Earth, Sea and Trees. So, how can Rev. 6 be wrath when in Rev. 7 the Angels are told to HOLD UP that wrath until the Jews repent and are protected? The Asteroid in Rev. 8 brings God's Wrath (Seal#6) the Anti-Christ is Seals 1-5 himself, but he can not go forth until God's Wrath falls at the 1260 event. (Rev. 8)

8 hours ago, The Light said:

I don't know how to get ahold of John and tell him is wrong. He says one seal is opened........rider on the white horse. John obviously doesn't realize that you claim all the seals need to be opened before anything can happen. If you claim that all the seals have to be opened before anything can happen and John claims that the events happen as each seal is opened............How do we correct his error?

 

God wrote the book of Revelation, gave it to Jesus who showed it to John via Visions and Words. John & God understood a Seal  SEALS UP a message/book, you don't it seems. There is ZERO CLAIM those events happen when the Seals are opened, the fact you can not see that the Seals are Visions into the future seems odd because in fact the whole book is a vision into the future. COME AND SEE......... is not a testament by an Angel that Blowing a Trump brings JUDGMENT or the pouring out of the Vials bring JUDGMENT.

So, the fact that John merely hears COME AND SEE, and not an Angel delivering a SOUNDED JUDGMENT, or PPOURING OUT the Vials of Judgment, means the Seals merely Seal up God's wrath.

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

7 seals means its not opened at the 6th seal, it just drives me up a wall that we get a 7 sealed book, and people do not grasp that nothing happens until the 7th seal is loosed. 

Its like a King with three wax signet seals announcing the messages content before he opens the 3rd Seal. He can not do that, but alas Jesus/God can do that, BUT.......it can only be referencing a future Judgment, Jesus just knows the future, the 7th seal has to be opened before Judgment can fall, WHY would you use the Seals Metaphor if it was a judgment instead of a set of seals tat seals up the judgements? 

Oh well brother, its just another day, trying to rescue a sick kitty, touch and go.  When God answered my prayer 10 or so years ago as to why we can not agree on these things as a end time church. He was (of course) spot on. He was like "Ron, you guys already know it all"

That is the only reason we as a church do not see everything the same way, its not being filtered by the holy spirit, and being honest, that can be the only answer. A that point, a forgot most everything I knew on prophecy, or rather, I simply asked God to show me when I was wrong, and He does that often, thus I became clued in.

Language is given by God to transmit ideas. It has rules to ensure that the idea is the same every time you apply that grammar. A "SCROLL" is a document that opens as you unroll it. It is impossible to reveal its total contents in one go. So also with a book. It reveals page by page. Here are some identical statements.
- I pulled the trigger AND the gun fired.
- I opened the bottle AND drank the water
- I waited fro the harvest BECAUSE the crop was not ripe 

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The grammar leaves no doubt that on opening the first seal something happened. If it did not go as said the Lord misled us.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, ... 4 And there went out another horse

And again. 

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, ... 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand (Rev.6:1–17).

The word "AND" is copulative and sequential. To change the meaning one must change the grammar, LIKE ...

He opened the sixth seal AND there was a pause until the seventh was opened

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Well that's not correct. The great tribulation is Satan killing believers that will not take the mark. The tribulation is against Christians. God's wrath is God's vengeance against an evil unbelieving world.

 

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The 7th seal is the one-year wrath of God.............which is the day of the Lord............containing the trumpets and vials of wrath

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Sound familar. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes and sends his angels to gather the elect. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. During that time God sends His wrath. Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

The Great Tribulation is the worst thing that would ever happen since the world began. If it consists of saints being killed, why that started with Stephen. But if it is God's response to men placing an imposter in the Temple and supernatural disasters kill Jews and Gentiles, over the WHOLE EARTH, the it is GOD'S VENGEANCE. The vengeance for the martyrs in Chapter 6 is a threat against their persecutors. The seven Trumpets do not kill saints but "men". If the Tribulation was to kill saints how does such a great company survive in Chapter 7. If the 1260 days of the Dragons "flood" in Revelation 12 is the Great Tribulation, why, it is because he was "WROTH". But his killing spree is thwarted by "the earth which helped the woman". Look at the grammar of Matthew 24;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The word "FOR" means "because of". It is "because of" The Abomination of Desolation that the Tribulation comes upon the whole earth and will be worse that Noah's flood. 

I think that you will have to reconsider your last statement. From Matthew 24 verse 1 to 31 everything is Jewish. From the Temple through synagogues, through Daniel, through the Sabbath to the elect, the WHOLE CONTEXT IS JEWISH. It was Jews that were scattered to the "four winds" (Jer.49:36, etc.). The are gathered back to their Land NOT HEAVEN.

"Wrath is an emotion". God wrath is hidden until One is found worthy to open the scroll of plagues. The Lamb, free of sins, may pour our God's wrath. This wrath causes TRIBULATION for men on earth. It affects Israel (Dan.12:1-2) an it covers the whole earth. God offers the Christian ESCAPE from it in Revelation 3:10. We Christians are NOT APPOINTED to God's WRATH (1st Thess.5:9).

[truth7t7]

16 hours ago, The Light said:

Well that's not correct. The great tribulation is Satan killing believers that will not take the mark.

"False" the unsaved world will be "Deceived" by the false prophet calling fire down from heaven into taking the mark, it won't be forced as many falsely believe and teach 

Revelation 19:20KJV

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

 

[missmuffet]

I am staying far,far away from this post. It is full of false teaching just as Satan would like.

Revelation 1:3

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:18

^]For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, ^[b]God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;