This is war?

[Luther]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Luther.

You're misunderstanding these verses in Romans 11. It's not "the election (Jews and Gentiles) saved by grace is not blinded." Rather, his point was "the Jews are blinded!" It's not about who's NOT blinded; it's all about who IS blinded, and he also pointed out that this blindness was TEMPORARY! "UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in!" Then, "the veil shall be lifted from their eyes!"

2 Corinthians 3:12-18 (KJV)

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, THE VAIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Forget that goofy word "spiritual!" It's too misused and abused to be of any real value. Everyone has a different definition for it, and most have the word wrong. Besides, Yitschaq ("Isaac") is the LITERAL SEED of 'AVraahaam ("Abraham") which became the lineage of the Messiah. There's nothing "spiritual" in it!

And, there you are VERY WRONG! Many of them can give you at least partial lineages that prove they are indeed Jews - children of Yhuwdaah ("Judah")! Indeed, to become citizens of Israel today, one may show his or her lineage, and they are accepted.

And, if children of Yhuwdaah, then children of Yisraa'eel/Ya`aqoV ("Israel/Jacob"), who are children of Yitschaq, who are children of 'AVraahaam!

Sorry, but that is NOT what Paul was saying in Romans 9:6-7! Re-read Romans chapters 9 through 11 with an OPEN MIND!

Anyway, here's the verses you mentioned:

Romans 9:6-7 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Genesis 21:12).

First, there ARE "sons of Belial" who are "worthless fellows"; they RESIST the Grace of God, like Korah and his family! I'm sure there are some of those in the state of Israel today, I won't disagree.

However, NOT ALL! Some are just disillusioned with the prophecies taking SO LONG to fulfill! But, they can learn of their Messiah and be thrilled with the possibilities once again! And, they ARE coming back to the Messiah today! And, ALL of the prophecies regarding the children of Israel SHALL BE FULFILLED! Modern day believers ("Christians") are NOT all who shall enter His Kingdom!

Besides Yitschaq and Yishmaa'eel ("Ishmael"), 'AVraahaam had six more sons through Keturah: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah, but NONE of these other 7 sons were 'AVraahaam's heirs!

How about BOTH?! They are the "people of the Book!" Paul said,

Romans 3:1-3 ?(KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? 2 Much EVERY WAY: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

 They CERTAINLY know the Hebrew better than most Christians do! AND, they are Yeeshuwa`s RELATIVES! They are also the subjects of Yeeshuwa`s future Kingdom, the Kingdom He begins AFTER He returns!

You said: " And, there you are VERY WRONG! Many of them can give you at least partial lineages that prove they are indeed Jews - "

90% of the " jews" in the world today are Ashkenazi jews. In other words, their ancestors are Europeans that converted to talmudic judaism ( which isn't even Biblical). No one wants to do their research. And quite frankly, I had no idea that the majority of people in the world who call themselves " jews" really are not. The Bible says something about this. 

[Luther]

22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Most small groups and congregations have a theme they adhere to.

Worthy Forums has watchmen and gatekeepers to deal with serious imbalances, like antisemitism in its various forms.

Some members have pet-hates and seem to look for opportunities to post them. Taken to extreme that constitutes flaming, which gets nipped in the bud when reported.

I'm a born-again Christian not affiliated with any church and I do not believe the narrative of today's " jews", who they are and where they came from. I've been examining the history of the jewish people and came to the conclusion ( like others) that it is impossible to claim blood ancestry to the 12 tribes of Israel. 

The Kingdom of Israel, comprising the ten tribes, is estimated to have had a population of around 450,000 when it was conquered by the Assyrians and the tribes scattered. This figure is based on census records and historical accounts, although the exact numbers vary slightly between different sources. 

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

First Census:

The first census, during the time of Moses, recorded a population of about 600,000 (men of military age), which averages to roughly 50,000 per tribe. 

Estimates for the Northern Kingdom:

Estimates for the Kingdom of Israel (the northern ten tribes) near the time of its conquest by the Assyrians (around 722 BC) are around 450,000. 

Combined Kingdom (Judah and Israel):

If you include the southern Kingdom of Judah, which also consisted of a few tribes, the estimated combined population near the end of both kingdoms would be around 841,000. 

So, less than a million Israelites, scattered almost three thousand years ago has kept their lineage. THEY WERE ALREADY MIXING WITH OTHER NATIONS AT THE TIME OF MOSES. And then to be scattered into the nations of the world. 

After my research, I learned of a massive kingdom called Khazaria ( a pretty well kept secret from most people which happens to be today's Ukraine) which converted to " judaism", a religion created by the Pharisees which totally degrades God's Word, according to the talmud. The overwhelming majority of  "jews" today are NOT semites. Their ancestors are eastern Europeans ( ASHKENAZI). 

So Michael, if all of this is true, which indeed it is, it's not "anti- semetic", correct? If no one wants to do their homework, or is in their happy place with their vision of Israel, Those who look outside of this contrived narrative shouldn't be e labeled anything but truth seekers. 

And as Jesus warned us, there are those " who call themselves jews, and are not". I trust Jesus. He wants us to learn the truth.

I have all the information available to anyone who is interested. 

[other one]

5 minutes ago, other one said:

I asked Grok.

Yes, Ashkenazi Jews are of Jewish descent. They are a Jewish ethnic group originating from the Hebrew Israelites, with historical roots in the Middle East. Their ancestors migrated to Central and Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages, developing distinct cultural and linguistic traditions, including the use of Yiddish. Genetic studies confirm their Middle Eastern ancestry, with some European admixture over time due to intermarriage and conversions.

Genetic studies confirming Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry primarily come from research on mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosomal markers, and autosomal DNA. Key sources include:

1. Behar et al. (2006), published in The American Journal of Human Genetics ("The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry"): This study analyzed mitochondrial DNA, finding that ~40% of Ashkenazi Jews share a small number of maternal lineages tracing back to the Middle East, consistent with Jewish origins.
2. Atzmon et al. (2010), published in The American Journal of Human Genetics ("Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era"): This autosomal DNA study confirmed that Ashkenazi Jews cluster genetically with Middle Eastern populations, showing significant shared ancestry with other Jewish groups (e.g., Sephardi Jews) and some European admixture.
3. Hammer et al. (2000), published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences ("Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes"): This Y-chromosome study found that Jewish populations, including Ashkenazim, share paternal lineages with Middle Eastern groups, supporting historical continuity.

These studies collectively demonstrate that Ashkenazi Jews have substantial Middle Eastern genetic ancestry, with minor European contributions due to historical migrations and intermarriage. For specific quotes or deeper analysis, I can search for the original texts if needed—let me know!

 

Let me know and I'll ask Grok for the original texts.

[George]

2 hours ago, Luther said:

90% of the " jews" in the world today are Ashkenazi jews. In other words, their ancestors are Europeans that converted to talmudic judaism ( which isn't even Biblical). No one wants to do their research. And quite frankly, I had no idea that the majority of people in the world who call themselves " jews" really are not. The Bible says something about this. 

You are misquoting Paul in Romans.  

As far as Jews are concerned, I suggest reading this SCIENCE.COM article detailing Genetics ...

Who are the Jews? For more than a century, historians and linguists have debated whether the Jewish people are a racial group, a cultural and religious entity, or something else. More recently, scientists have been weighing in on the question with genetic data. The latest such study, published today in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.

....

In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.

 Source: Science.com

 

As far as your quote about Jews being 90% Ashkenazi ... that's ONLY AMERICAN Jews ... in Israel, it's pretty divided between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.

 

But in reality, you're completely missing the bigger picture of Israel and God's purposes for the nation!

Here’s the point: Paul uses Israel as a living lesson of God’s faithfulness. Romans 8 ends with powerful promises—nothing can separate us from God’s love.

“If God is for us, who can be against us?”
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?”
“We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.”

Paul then moves into Romans 9–11 to prove this truth by pointing to Israel—God’s covenant people—as a demonstration of His sovereignty, faithfulness, and ability to keep His promises. Israel’s story isn’t a side note—it’s central to revealing that God doesn’t abandon what He starts.

And if God hasn’t abandoned Israel, despite all their unfaithfulness, then He absolutely won’t abandon us! That’s the core lesson, and it’s so often missed.

Just as Israel played a key role in God’s plan to bring forth the Messiah and the Scriptures, God is now flipping the script—using Gentiles to help reveal their Messiah and the truth of their Scriptures back to them.

Now, are you going to participate in His prophetic plan to reach them with the gospel?  Because if you decide to do so ... you're connecting to His Plan, and His purposes!  

[Alive]

As Paul expressed his love for his fellow Jews…in that spirit, it’s going to be a wonderful thing to witness when the time of the gentiles is full and God opens their eyes again. Whatever eschatological position one has, that is going to be quite a day to watch unfold.

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, Luther said:

I'm a born-again Christian not affiliated with any church and I do not believe the narrative of today's " jews", who they are and where they came from. I've been examining the history of the jewish people and came to the conclusion ( like others) that it is impossible to claim blood ancestry to the 12 tribes of Israel. 

The Kingdom of Israel, comprising the ten tribes, is estimated to have had a population of around 450,000 when it was conquered by the Assyrians and the tribes scattered. This figure is based on census records and historical accounts, although the exact numbers vary slightly between different sources. 

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

First Census:

The first census, during the time of Moses, recorded a population of about 600,000 (men of military age), which averages to roughly 50,000 per tribe. 

Estimates for the Northern Kingdom:

Estimates for the Kingdom of Israel (the northern ten tribes) near the time of its conquest by the Assyrians (around 722 BC) are around 450,000. 

Combined Kingdom (Judah and Israel):

If you include the southern Kingdom of Judah, which also consisted of a few tribes, the estimated combined population near the end of both kingdoms would be around 841,000. 

So, less than a million Israelites, scattered almost three thousand years ago has kept their lineage. THEY WERE ALREADY MIXING WITH OTHER NATIONS AT THE TIME OF MOSES. And then to be scattered into the nations of the world. 

After my research, I learned of a massive kingdom called Khazaria ( a pretty well kept secret from most people which happens to be today's Ukraine) which converted to " judaism", a religion created by the Pharisees which totally degrades God's Word, according to the talmud. The overwhelming majority of  "jews" today are NOT semites. Their ancestors are eastern Europeans ( ASHKENAZI). 

So Michael, if all of this is true, which indeed it is, it's not "anti- semetic", correct? If no one wants to do their homework, or is in their happy place with their vision of Israel, Those who look outside of this contrived narrative shouldn't be e labeled anything but truth seekers. 

And as Jesus warned us, there are those " who call themselves jews, and are not". I trust Jesus. He wants us to learn the truth.

I have all the information available to anyone who is interested. 

Perhaps your examination overlooked the recent reestablishment of the Sanhedrin, the Temple Institute, and the successful breeding of unblemished red heifers for the Third Temple service. All of these endeavors utilized DNA markers and testing to identify and train candidates for high priest and temple service in the lineage of Aaron, brother of Moses, the first high priest.

Third Temple School Trains Jewish Priests for Service | Messianic Bible

Regardless of what the unreliable Wikipedia has to offer, the blood ancestry of the twelve tribes is very feasible through the various disciplines (Jewish records, Jewish family records, DNA, archeology, genealogy, the Bible, etc. Jewry is the most genealogically documented race on the planet. Helpful information can be found here:

Historical and Genetic Studies on the Twelve Tribes of Israel and Their Relation to the Present Ethnic Composition of the Jewish People on JSTOR

As for myself, being a member of the ekklēsia is vital to the church's mission. We support the local community, helping those in need spiritually and physically. We come together collectively in praise and worship for our Lord, spreading light to a dark world and for those who are lost. We pool our resources together for the common good. We uplift and encourage one another, especially when we see the day approaching, and we sure are witnessing “that day.” How is this accomplished unaffiliated?

Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

[Luther]

11 hours ago, George said:

You are misquoting Paul in Romans.  

As far as Jews are concerned, I suggest reading this SCIENCE.COM article detailing Genetics ...

Who are the Jews? For more than a century, historians and linguists have debated whether the Jewish people are a racial group, a cultural and religious entity, or something else. More recently, scientists have been weighing in on the question with genetic data. The latest such study, published today in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.

....

In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.

 Source: Science.com

 

As far as your quote about Jews being 90% Ashkenazi ... that's ONLY AMERICAN Jews ... in Israel, it's pretty divided between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.

 

But in reality, you're completely missing the bigger picture of Israel and God's purposes for the nation!

Here’s the point: Paul uses Israel as a living lesson of God’s faithfulness. Romans 8 ends with powerful promises—nothing can separate us from God’s love.

“If God is for us, who can be against us?”
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?”
“We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.”

Paul then moves into Romans 9–11 to prove this truth by pointing to Israel—God’s covenant people—as a demonstration of His sovereignty, faithfulness, and ability to keep His promises. Israel’s story isn’t a side note—it’s central to revealing that God doesn’t abandon what He starts.

And if God hasn’t abandoned Israel, despite all their unfaithfulness, then He absolutely won’t abandon us! That’s the core lesson, and it’s so often missed.

Just as Israel played a key role in God’s plan to bring forth the Messiah and the Scriptures, God is now flipping the script—using Gentiles to help reveal their Messiah and the truth of their Scriptures back to them.

Now, are you going to participate in His prophetic plan to reach them with the gospel?  Because if you decide to do so ... you're connecting to His Plan, and His purposes!  

The " plan" is the same for all of humanity. Declare the Word of God. Through His Word, the Holy Spirit indwells those who were chosen before the world began. Also known as the  "remnant" or the " election":

Romans 11:5-7 KJV

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant ( not a nation or race of people) according to the election of grace.

[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election ( divinely selected, "ALL ISRAEL") hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

So it's very clear that God has a special people that He came to save. And When He comes at the last day, He will take us all home to our eternal inheritance. It  has nothing to do with who we are, for all have sinned.

The only thing that matters is being ready, as in the five wise virgins, because when the door is shut, the day of salvation is over. 

Sorry, I can't place any more emphasis on one group of people over another. Christ is Israel, and we are the Israel of God. 

Isaiah 41:8-11 KJV

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

[9] Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

[10] Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

[11] Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.

Isaiah 44:1-3 KJV

Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

[2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

[3] For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

WHO IS THIRSTY?

John 4:14 KJV

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Revelation 21:6 KJV

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

I don't view God's plan of salvation any  different for any particular group of people. That is basically what my disagreement here is about. Whether they have semitic roots or if their authority is the talmud and not the Bible is actually a secondary issue. 

 

[Luther]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Perhaps your examination overlooked the recent reestablishment of the Sanhedrin, the Temple Institute, and the successful breeding of unblemished red heifers for the Third Temple service. All of these endeavors utilized DNA markers and testing to identify and train candidates for high priest and temple service in the lineage of Aaron, brother of Moses, the first high priest.

Third Temple School Trains Jewish Priests for Service | Messianic Bible

Regardless of what the unreliable Wikipedia has to offer, the blood ancestry of the twelve tribes is very feasible through the various disciplines (Jewish records, Jewish family records, DNA, archeology, genealogy, the Bible, etc. Jewry is the most genealogically documented race on the planet. Helpful information can be found here:

Historical and Genetic Studies on the Twelve Tribes of Israel and Their Relation to the Present Ethnic Composition of the Jewish People on JSTOR

As for myself, being a member of the ekklēsia is vital to the church's mission. We support the local community, helping those in need spiritually and physically. We come together collectively in praise and worship for our Lord, spreading light to a dark world and for those who are lost. We pool our resources together for the common good. We uplift and encourage one another, especially when we see the day approaching, and we sure are witnessing “that day.” How is this accomplished unaffiliated?

Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

The church ( ekklēsia) is the body of believers in Jesus Christ, not in a physical building. You don't have to be in a worldly construct to receive exhortation or instruction from the Holy Spirit. 

[Alive]

The language here by the Holy Spirit in Paul, could not be more clear…the Lord wanted us to understand this.

“For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM, THAT IT WOULD BE PAID BACK TO HIM? For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.”

(Romans 11:25-36 NAS20)

[George]

30 minutes ago, Luther said:

Sorry, I can't place any more emphasis on one group of people over another. Christ is Israel, and we are the Israel of God. 

 

So, what does Paul mean when he says...

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 

Rom 1:17  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."