BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Keras]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, refute it all you want, but I've looked at the Hebrew, and it MUST be the Messiah that is meant by the "he" in Daniel 9:27. AND, it FITS!

To think the 'he' of Daniel 9:27, is Jesus, the Messiah, is wrong because the "prince' referred to in verse 26, who destroyed the city and Sancturary in 70 AD, is manifested by the man who will put a stop to the Temple worship. In the end times fulfilment of 2 Thess 2:4   Both are leaders of a Roman type government.

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 there will be a Pre Trib. Rapture,

The Bible never, ever says that the Lord will take His people to heaven. We are made by Hm to inhabit the earth and nowhere else. After the Judgment, Rev 20:11-15, THEN; those worthy will receive immortality and will inhabit the New Earth; Rev 21

I have deleted my further comments, as being too personal. However, let me reiterate that we will all be Judged for what we have taught and promoted. Right and correct teaching will be rewarded and wrong and incorrect teaching, saved only by passing thru fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13-14

Edited June 4 by Keras

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sure there is, it means "Body" and we are the body of Christ that is literally what it means. We are hands, feet, toes, as Paul tells us, all many but one in Christ who is the head. He's our High Priest in Heaven sitting at His Father's side.

Shalom, @Revelation Man.

Sorry, but "ekkleesia" (spelled epsilon, kappa, kappa, lambda, eta, sigma, iota, alpha) means a "called-out" assembly. The word "sooma" (spelled sigma-omega-mu-alpha) means "body." Paul made an ANALOGY of the ekkleesia to the sooma, and its members to members of the body. However, this was not a UNIVERSAL analogy, but was a LOCAL analogy:

See, within each separate group, they were to work together and help one another to maintain the group's health. Therefore, each separate group would each work together to support all the members OF THAT GROUP! It was never intended to be expanded to all the groups as though they were one! That's my point: They were not ONE "ekkleesia"; they were "ekkleesiai" (the plural of "ekkleesia")! I use the analogy to say, "It's hard for a finger in Albuquerque to scratch a nose in Kalamazoo!" That's NOT what Paul intended in this analogy. He was talking about a LOCAL church, specifically the church at Korinth!

Yes, He is our High Priest forever after the order of Malkhiy-Tsedeq, "My-King-of-Righteousness," but one should NOT make the mistake that, just because He is seated on His Father's right hand side, that He is currently reigning in "Heaven!"

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The bible even foretold this event, Paul speaks about it in Rom. 11 he quotes Isaiah about Go calling a strange people he HAD NOT KNOWN, and he also stated Israel would repent, as Zech. 13:8-9 says they will.

I agree.

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its not another "Entity"; that's your words, because both Jews and Gentiles can come unto Christ and be a part of his Bride. But only Jews (mostly, a few Gentiles knew God in the Old Test.) will be the Father's Bride. Both are God, its just how God chose to save the world. If the God of "Israel" had been given to the world many would have rejected that aspect, but instead God chose to let a Human Man/Jesus/God the Redeemer, die for their sins, thus they could turn to a human being they could see, and understand he was the son of God. You saying Jesus and God doesn't have separate brides just belies the word of God. Its a fact.

However they are not Jews, they are still Gentiles. In Gal. 3 Paul was speaking unto HOW we all come unto God be we Jew, Gentile, Male or Female, Slave or Freeman, and that is by FAITH ALONE, Paul was never saying we are all one entity no more than he was saying there is only ONE SEX now. He was saying we are all one in Christ & how we come into the family of God which is a spiritual family, that does not change these facts, there are still Males and Females, and Jews and Gentiles etc.

Well, we are to worship God together. We're not separate entities; however, we're not together called "the church!" We who are Gentiles are graffed into the Root of David, which makes us Jews through the Messiah! We are ADOPTED into His family, even though they were born as Gentiles!

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Are you really saying God can not have SEPARATE CALLINGS for two different entities?

Wait a minute! Didn't you just get done saying that "It's not another Entity?" 

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Nations? Peoples? How about the Church, we all are told by Paul we each have UNIQUE CALLINGS unto God, some to Prophesy, some to Healing, some to Preaching and some to Teaching etc. etc. So, God can call us humans unto different callings but not Nations & Peoples hey? Come on brother !!

Of course God can give two different people two different callings; however, who says that we are two "different peoples?"

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Your problem is you have to try and mold everything to fit your understandings & beliefs, that is not how it works, we have to mold ourselves unto God's truths.

Well, from my perspective, I'm not the one who is attempting to "mold everything to fit my understandings and beliefs." That challenge belongs to one who reads into the Scriptures things that aren't said by the author or Author, like "taking us to Heaven when we die"!

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The reason I do not quote/reply to all the scriptures is it does no good if a person 1.) Takes it out of context 2.) Misunderstands the passages 3.) People sometimes just confuse the context and apply it where it doesn't belong. The THIRD one gets you above on Ephesians, WE AGREE, we are all one in Christ Jesus, we are all Christs Bride.......BUT YOU MISS EVERYTHING ELSE VIA THE TIMING TELLS.

1) I quote a lot of Scripture to be sure that the reader understand that it is NOT "out of its context." I bring the context WITH the verses needed!

2) I don't misunderstand the passages, and if there's a question with what words may mean, I go to the source and look up the words!

3) Well, I don't think that's something I do; so, let's investigate your claim, shall we?

Regarding Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, I think I've only used chapter 2, and again, I wrote out the WHOLE context. We are ONE NEW MAN in the Messiah!

I don't quite understand your last sentence in this portion. Would you care to rephrase it for me, please?

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Those who died before Jesus was born are the Fathers Bride, those Jews who repent AFTER the Pre Trib. Rapture will again be a part of the Fathers Bride, they ARE the 144,000 which is a CODE just like the 1/3 in Zechariah 13:8-9, God was never going to give Satan the true numbers 2000 plus years ago so that he could plan out his strategies.  The number 12 = Fulness and the number 10 = Completeness, thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is not really just  144,000 people/MALE VIRGINS, its ALL Israel who repents both male, female and children. Why is it you guys understand the concept of the 10 Virgin Brides as being the Complete Bride of Christ, men, women and children, but then can not get the concept of the 144,000 Virgin Males who are God's Bride? The 1/3 of Israel who repent.  

No, the 144,000 are MUSICIANS and SINGERS! Look more carefully to the words in Revelation 14:1-5. They are not just any people; they are people who can play instruments and sing! It's going to be a massive CHOIR!

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

All this is not relevant, with the holy spirit, a design throughout the bible can be seen, one doesn't have to try to see these ghost events, one can see a thread on continuity, but when one denies these things, then they have to try and make things fit that don't fit naturally. Thus we get philosophical breakdowns on word meanings etc. etc. I study all the root words, but I do so on a deeper level, not to try and weave in another meaning per se, but to get to the original meaning.

With all your word study, I bet its just done to back up your already born out points of view. You will never look at 2 Thess. 2:3 and ADMIT that really means DEPARTURE [of the Church] even though its OBVIOUS that's what it means. So, your word study can not be taken serious by me, since you will not ever use it to go against what you already believe. Its like a crutch for you, you only use it when it backs you up. 

You wrote NEVER ENDING REPLIES that do nothing to the points I put forth, I showed how the Bride was linked by Jesus to his Disciples, y our soon to come Rapture and you came up with nothing but never ending word verbiage, which at some point just becomes nonsensical repetitive non points. Any excuse to about my reasonings seems like the plot twist.

AGAIN.....TECH POINTS THAT ARE INCONGRUENT !!

 

The Bridal Suite is in the FATHERS HOUSE..........SMH. This is why you can not put anything together, you have a BELIEF and will use any point EVEN NONPOINTS like above, to excuse your belief's lack of cred. Jesus said I was come again and receive you unto myself. Where was the Bridal Room always built at? In the FATHERS HOUSE, you can not dodge this, even though you tried. SIGH

I'm out, you are wrong, there will be a Pre Trib. Rapture, but you will never see ot coming until it happens and you are flying to be with the Lord IN SPIRIT, laving behind an earthly flesh body on earth. By then your pride will give way to understanding, we see darkly now, but at that point in time, you will know. 

 

 

 

 

[enoob57]

18 hours ago, Keras said:

The Bible never, ever says that the Lord will take His people to heaven. We are made by Hm to inhabit the earth and nowhere else.

Revelation 4:1-5 (KJV)

[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[3] And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

[4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

[Keras]

What happened when the Revelation was given to John and the several other Biblical accounts of individuals going to heaven; always only temp0roraly, in no way proves a general rapture of the Church to heaven.

We have our appointed tasks to do here, Matthew 28:19-20 - until Jesus Returns.

[Diaste]

On 5/28/2025 at 9:33 AM, The Light said:

Great.

And since Christ ascended there is one group or fold that knows Jesus is the Messiah. The second fold is still currently blinded and will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles come in at the Pretribulation Rapture which occurs at the Trump of God.

I see where there is a vast number of people in heaven after a gathering out from within great tribulation. Perhaps you could show from scripture a like group, vast in number and as holy as the ones described in Rev 7, raptured pretribulationally.

On 5/28/2025 at 9:33 AM, The Light said:

The second fold will go through the great tribulation and be raptured at the fall harvest at the Last Trump which is blown on the fall harvest feast of the Feast of Trumpets.

Wrong last trump.

On 5/28/2025 at 9:33 AM, The Light said:

LOL. That got me laughing. Jesus separated a people to Himself with their own language and covenants. His people, His Elect, the Chosen people of God.

And yet anyone could join. 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:33 AM, The Light said:

They were to be the first harvest, as the fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest of the fig tree. However, they severed Baalpeor and were found as grapes in the wildness. Therefore, the Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Your 'therefore' isn't a valid conclusion from what you posted. 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:33 AM, The Light said:

I'm not sure why you want to deny Gods plan. Protecting a doctrine?

 

I don't see you have demonstrated it is God's plan. It's a church plan. It's a western doctrine. That I can see. 

[Diaste]

On 5/28/2025 at 9:13 AM, The Light said:

No. The important idea is using the full Word of God. You want to skip right to the Israel of God, and deny that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel has its blindness removed. 

Not at all. IMO, it's misrepresented. The fulness of the Gentiles is the grafting in to the natural olive tree even as some of the natural branches have been broken off. In that way we stay in the context of salvation in Christ, the proper order and the how those in Christ dwell in the family and congregation of God in Jesus. 

The fulness of the Gentiles isn't some entity apart from Christ and the natural olive tree.

On 5/28/2025 at 9:13 AM, The Light said:

And yet God says the election obtained that which they seek, and the rest were blinded. 

I agree, some are blinded. In no way does this mean the election is apart from the seed of Abraham, in Christ. 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:13 AM, The Light said:

That blindness will not be removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Yes. But it's not clear from scripture just what part of Israel, who it is, exactly when this happens, nor what the fulness of the Gentiles truly means. There is a lot of speculation and personal belief surrounding this, a lot of wishes and hopes, but nothing is clear beyond the fact of the occurrence.

On 5/28/2025 at 9:13 AM, The Light said:

Not hardly. There are two folds, just as the Word says. The first fold that will come in are those the know Jesus is the Messiah and He knows us, the Gentile Church. 

Okay. Provide the scriptural evidence, a direct statement, of two folds treated with certain distinctions. You say the first fold is the Gentile Church. 

Please provide scriptural evidence of the first fold, then it's definition as the Gentile Church. 

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:13 AM, The Light said:

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Those of the 12 tribes will realize that they have missed the summer harvest.

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Part of Israel will have its eyes opened and will accept Jesus as the Messiah and 144,000 first fruits are the first fruits of the coming harvest......the second fold.

 

Your conclusion does not follow from what you posted. 

What I see from the verses above that lead to your conclusion is like saying:

Dogs have four legs.

A Labrador is a dog.

Ergo, some Labradors are yellow.

The conclusion does not follow from the premises. 

 

[Diaste]

On 5/28/2025 at 8:52 AM, The Light said:

Many people have asked why traditional Judaism uses matrilineal descent to determine Jewish status, especially because for tribal affiliation, priestly status, and royalty, patrilineal descent determines membership.

The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is considered a Jew, and several other passages where the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not considered a Jew.

In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, God prohibits intermarriage, saying “he [i.e., the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others.” The Torah does not include a similar concern is for the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, one can infer that a child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish and can be turned away from Judaism, but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish and turning away is not an issue. Also, Leviticus 24:10 speaks about the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as “among the community of Israel” (i.e., a Jew).

On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/who-is-a-jew

One aspect upon which you hang your hopes ignoring the full landscape. 

A prime example of this is the next paragraph which must have been an accidental oversight on your part:

"People sometimes ask how King David could be a Jew given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew. However, Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. (In Ruth 1:16 she states her intention to convert.) After she converted, Ruth was Jewish, and her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. Even so, Ruth is David’s paternal ancestor, so Ruth’s Jewish identity or lack thereof would not impact King David’s status as a Jew because King David’s Jewish status is determined matrilineally."

As I said, anyone, from anywhere, can be a Jew, as stated at the beginning of the article you quoted. The fact that you missed it must have been another unintentional oversight. Here it is again:

Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 5/28/2025 at 8:36 AM, The Light said:

Part of Israel has its blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We can tell by the 144,000 that these are of twelve tribes across the earth.

Please provide chapter and verse of this cause and effect. 

On 5/28/2025 at 8:36 AM, The Light said:

Those in the nation of Israel do not have their blindness removed as they flee to a place of protection when the AOD is set up.

And where is the scriptural evidence?

That word you keep using, blindness, is a hardening of the heart. It's only used 3 time in the NT: Mark 3, Romans 11 and Ephesians 4. I looked at all 3 just now. Mark and Ephesians do not shed light on the conclusory statements above. 

Romans 11 is better at defining the effects of the hardening and it's purpose but does not assist in rendering your conclusions valid. The hardening serves a clear purpose:

I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

It's also not the dire prediction you would have others believe. Hear what Paul says about that:

 

"Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

The trouble here is one of belief, not an undefined moment of 'fullness of the Gentiles', as though the fulness of the Gentiles is an elevated position above the natural branches:

Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 

21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.

I'm thinking you may have inadvertently missed Paul's full exposition of the concepts in Romans 11. No matter. It happens. 

[Diaste]

On 5/28/2025 at 8:31 AM, The Light said:

As you know Jews are of the tribe of Judah and all of the 12 tribes get grouped as a Jew.

By mankind, yes.

On 5/28/2025 at 8:31 AM, The Light said:

 

Part of Israel is the 12 tribes across the earth. They are called Jews.

I was trying to simplify it for you. If you need me to call them the 12 tribes across the earth......no problem

My point is that Jews are a religion and they are not Israel. Israel the nation of borders is also not the Israel of God. Paul is speaking about the Israel of God in Romans 11. 

The Israel of God failed in it's search but the elect did not, that elect is not prejudicial. Israel failed the elect did not, the rest were hardened.

"What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,"

The 'others were hardened'? This implies the elect were originally of Israel since the 'others' are of Israel, that means some of Israel are the elect. 

This idea supports the overarching concept of the elect being those in Christ, of the seed of Abraham and their origins from Israel. 

I don't need it simplified or clarified. I was pointing out the fact Jews have nothing to do with it. Jew is a religion, man made, man defined, man supported and has nothing to do with the Israel of God. 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Revelation 4:1-5 (KJV)

[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[3] And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

[4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Shalom, @enoob57.

The words "thou" and "thee" and "thy" and "thine" are SINGULAR, second-person pronouns in Elizabethan English, and the words "ye" and "you" and "your" and "yours" are PLURAL, second-person pronouns. This is information, btw, that is LOST in modern translations of Scripture, since we no longer use the singular forms in common English, and we've reduced the plural to "you" and "your" and "yours." Now, we must get the difference between direct address to singular or plural by the context in which we find the "you," "your," or "yours." Sometimes, that's difficult to do in the contexts of the Bible. This is one of the reasons I prefer the KJV.

Thus, this was addressed SOLELY to Yochanan ("John") as he was snatched away to view revelation about the future. (It's not "the Rapture.") No one else is going up to "Heaven" with John, at the same time!

The natural question would be "'the throne was set' UPON WHAT?" Anything that has mass and is within the gravitational field of the earth is going to be pulled to earth by gravity. Things can't sit upon clouds, for clouds are simply mists that are formed above the dew point. This level (which is variable, depending on humidity, temperature and pressure) is called the "lifting condensation level (LCL)." That's why clouds appear flat on the bottom.

Things don't naturally float in the sky, unless they are supported by helium balloons (as in the cartoon movie "Up"), or are flying with wings or propellers.

Even objects that are in orbit are not floating there. They are perpetually falling, but moving so fast that the earth falls away from them at the same rate by the curvature of the earth, such that they are constantly falling to the earth and constantly MISSING IT! This is what an "orbit" is. Geosynchronous orbits are such orbits that are at the particular height to be falling to earth and missing it in the same direction as the earth spins, and at the same speed as the earth turns. Thus, they can appear to be generally in the same spot whenever one looks up to find them. This is important to modern communication satellites. Thus, radio listening devices can be trained to their exact location.

Another possibility is that this throne is set in the "heavens" - in the "skies" - by sitting upon a MOUNTAIN (such as Mount Tsiyown or "Zion") which has a top "among the clouds," and one must look up to see it when at lower elevations.