BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Montana Marv]

19 minutes ago, Keras said:

Jesus was referring to the New Jerusalem, which will appear after the Millennium and the GWT Judgment. Revelation 21 to 22:1-5m describe that wonderful place,

That's not implied at all.  The us in John 14 is referring to Spirit filled Believers see John 14:16. And Jesus is preparing a place for them the Bride.  This is only referring to the Bride. 

Ye,t the New Jerusalem will have many many more.  The Just of Israel,  The Just of Pre-flood, the Just of Post Flood. Those of the nations who did not follow Satan's last campaign and the Bride.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

13 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yet, Jesus said in john 14 that He is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for us.  That where I am (the Fathers House),; I will come back and take you to be with me.  You know the way to the place where I am going.  All about the Fathers House.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shabbat shalom, @Montana Marv.

That's what many assume, but in philosophical, logical discussions, this is called a "non sequitur." That's Latin for "it doesn't necessarily follow." Think of the time line and WHEN Yeeshuwa` will be WHERE:

When He was saying this to His disciples, "where I am" was right there in Jerusalem in the upper room, having just had His passover meal with them. Yhudah ("Judas") had just left to work out his treachery, and Yeeshuwa` was beginning to feel the weight of what was shortly to come.

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

But, when He "comes again" and returns to earth, "where I am" will be once again in the Land of Israel, possibly back in Jerusalem.

He DID NOT SAY that He was taking them back to the New Jerusalem with Him! Those words NEVER left His mouth!

So, when He "comes again," THEN "He will receive them unto Himself" and that will be back on the earth again! This process requires their resurrections and their transporting to His presence! If they died anywhere else in the world, as Peter did in Rome and John did on the Isle of Patmos, they would be transported by the "angels" back to meet Him in the air, and go on to Israel from there.

 

 

[Montana Marv]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

Not Scriptural supported.  All conjecture.

The for you/these are the N.T. Believers, see v, 16; they are given a Counselor, the Spirit of Truth.   2000 years to construct something which God can created by His own mouth.  Say it and it is done.

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

Not seen/reported by John when taken into Heaven.

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

But, when He "comes again" and returns to earth, "where I am" will be once again in the Land of Israel, possibly back in Jerusalem.

The Temple in Jerusalem  Ezk 43: 1-7.

So what you are implying is the Bride will be in (your view of the unfinished New Jerusalem in Heaven); Then will return with Christ to this earth, and not be in (your unfinished New Jerusalem); Later to dwell in the fully constructed New Jerusalem.

Why would Christ want us His Bride living/dwelling in an unfinished building, when all others enter when it is fully constructed?  That after the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Keras]

55 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The for you/these are the N.T. Believers, see v, 16; they are given a Counselor, the Spirit of Truth

John 14:1-3 Set your troubled hearts at rest. Trust in God, trust also in Me. There are many dwelling places in My Fathers House…..and if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

He has built those "mansions" on earth. The "Father's House" , where the "rooms' are prepared, is a reference to the temple’ of the Lord’ s Christian believers during this Church age.

1Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
God dwells in the church in the person of the Holy Spirit. Before he departed, Jesus said that he must go away (to heaven) so that he could send the Holy Spirit to us.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
In essence, Jesus had to go away to heaven, so that the Holy Spirit could come and dwell in his House on earth, which is now the Church. And as soon as this process began, Jesus 'returned' back to us via the Holy Spirit. If you will read beyond vs 3 in John 14, you will see this is what he meant. The 'mansion' is again mentioned in vs 23, and it's whereabouts is identified. See the word "abode" underlined below in vs 23? It is the same greek word G3438 rendered as "mansions" in vs 2.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The abode/mansion is inside the believer now. The believer is a part of the church/Father's House. Jesus 'returns' to dwell inside each believer via the Holy Spirit. The many rooms are inside the believers, one room per believer, which corporately add up to be the Father's House, or the Church, as plainly stated in 1Tim 3:15.

The word "mansions" sends the imagination of the modern reader fluttering. Yes, the idea of a large palatial home in Heaven sounds wonderful, but that is not at all what is being promised here. In Christ's time the word "mansion" was used to mean a tent. Like the ones the Roman military would use when they were marching as they moved from place to place. A very small, easy to carry dwelling place. A tarp with a stick really. Not very grand. A "mansion" actually became a unit of measurement based on how far the army could march before they set up this tent at night.

In the time of the translation of the KJV a mansion had come to mean an apartment house. A house with many dwelling places in it. Thinking that they recognized the message being conferred here, that the Father's house has many dwelling places in it, like an apartment house, they interpretatively translated mone to mansions. But really they just butchered the text to now read as if to say "The Father's House" (an apartment house with many rooms) contains many mansions (apartment houses with many rooms).
A mansion as referring to a large palatial single family house is a fairly modern definition. This is classic example of how meanings have changed over the last 400 years. We should ignore ‘mansions’ and substitute the word 'rooms' in vs 2. Then read the rest of the chapter soberly to understand what Jesus is saying. He does a long Q & A on what was said in vs 1- 3 in the rest of the chapter. We don't have to interpret what He says, He plainly tells us the interpretation.  \

[The Light]

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Not at all. IMO, it's misrepresented. The fulness of the Gentiles is the grafting in to the natural olive tree even as some of the natural branches have been broken off. In that way we stay in the context of salvation in Christ, the proper order and the how those in Christ dwell in the family and congregation of God in Jesus. The fulness of the Gentiles isn't some entity apart from Christ and the natural olive tree.

You just want to talk about the cake, the final result. You want to skip the process of making the cake.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

 

I agree, some are blinded. In no way does this mean the election is apart from the seed of Abraham, in Christ.

And in no way does that effect the price of eggs.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Yes. But it's not clear from scripture just what part of Israel, who it is, exactly when this happens, nor what the fulness of the Gentiles truly means. There is a lot of speculation and personal belief surrounding this, a lot of wishes and hopes, but nothing is clear beyond the fact of the occurrence.

We know the part of Israel is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, as the woman, those in the nation of Israel, flee to her place of protection when the AOD is set up.

And we know the dragon goes after the woman's seed when he can't get to the woman.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Okay. Provide the scriptural evidence, a direct statement, of two folds treated with certain distinctions. You say the first fold is the Gentile Church. 

The believers that know Jesus is Messiah are principally Gentiles as the Jews are blinded except for the election. 

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Please provide scriptural evidence of the first fold, then it's definition as the Gentile Church. 

The Gentiles receive salvation, and the Jews are not saved until they are provoked to jealously.

Romans 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

 

Your conclusion does not follow from what you posted. 

What I see from the verses above that lead to your conclusion is like saying:

Dogs have four legs.

A Labrador is a dog.

Ergo, some Labradors are yellow.

The conclusion does not follow from the premises. 

 

The harvest is past. The Jews see that the Gentiles have been raptured.

The summer is ended. There is no more summer harvest.

The Jews are not saved. They will be provoked to jealously.

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

[Keras]

Isaiah 45:8 Rain righteousness, you heavens, let the sky above pour it down, let the earth open for it, so that salvation may flourish and righteousness with it. The Lord will do this.     Psalms 50:6, Psalms 140:12-13, Isaiah 1:27

Isaiah 45:9-10  Can we contend with our Maker? Can the pot say to the Potter: What are you making? Or a child ask its parents: What have you brought to birth?   Thus, the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says; Ask Me about things to come, concerning My children, the work of My hands. It is I, who made the earth and created mankind upon it.    Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6

Isaiah 45:18-19 The Lord, He who is God, the Maker of the earth; formed as a place to be inhabited says: I did not speak in secret, out of darkness, I did not say to Jacobs descendants: look for Me in vain. I am God, with Me is victory and salvation.    Isaiah 51:13, Isaiah 54:5

Isaiah 45:21-24 Come forward and present your case, who was it that foretold what is to be? Was it not the Lord? There is no God but Me, I am the One who is victorious and able to save. From every corner of the earth, turn to Me and be saved. By Myself, I have sworn My promise of victory and to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear, saying: In the Lord alone is righteousness and strength. All who defy Me, will stand ashamed in My presence. 1 Chronicles 29:11, John 3:16

Isaiah 45:20 & 16 Gather together and come near, you survivors of the nations, who in ignorance carry wooden idols in procession, who pray to gods that cannot save. All the idol worshippers will be disgraced, they will perish in their confusion.

2 Kings 17:12, Deuteronomy 32:36-42, Jeremiah 10:1-16, Isaiah 66:17

Isaiah 45:25 & 17 But all Israel’s descendants will be victorious, they will be found righteous and will glory in the Lord. Israel has been delivered by the Lord for all time, they will never be disgraced or put to shame. Deut. 33:1-5, Jer. 3:23

                                                           Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged 

At the end of the Church age, there will, at last be righteousness and justice on earth. The first stage will be amongst His people, who will be gathered soon after the worldwide Lord’s Day of wrath occurs. ‘Gather and come near, you survivors of the nations. All the idol worshippers will perish’. Then all the true followers of the Lord, all Jacob/Israel’s descendants, be they ethnic or grafted in, will enter and live in the Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 23:3, Zechariah 10:8-10

Later will come the worldwide Kingdom of Jesus on earth, to Him ‘every knee will bow’. Then, finally, will come the ‘New Heavens and New Earth’’. Revelation 21:1-26                                                                              

[The Light]

On 6/6/2025 at 2:55 AM, Diaste said:

One aspect upon which you hang your hopes ignoring the full landscape. 

A prime example of this is the next paragraph which must have been an accidental oversight on your part:

"People sometimes ask how King David could be a Jew given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew. However, Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. (In Ruth 1:16 she states her intention to convert.) After she converted, Ruth was Jewish, and her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. Even so, Ruth is David’s paternal ancestor, so Ruth’s Jewish identity or lack thereof would not impact King David’s status as a Jew because King David’s Jewish status is determined matrilineally."

Ruth is a Gentile. She is a picture of the Gentile bride of Christ.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:55 AM, Diaste said:

As I said, anyone, from anywhere, can be a Jew, as stated at the beginning of the article you quoted. The fact that you missed it must have been another unintentional oversight. Here it is again:

Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

 

 

The Jews are the natural branches. The Gentiles are the wild branches. You cannot make a wild branch a natural branch.

[The Light]

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

Please provide chapter and verse of this cause and effect. 

Blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The 144,000 which are of the 12 tribes across the earth are first fruits. 

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

First fruits and then the harvest.

Proverbs 3

9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Here is the harvest.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Those righteous that are harvested are singing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes across the earth. They are the seed of the woman Israel.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The woman Israel is in a place of protection and remains on the earth during the wrath of God. The dragon goes after the woman seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth some of which have their blindness removed.

Revelation 12

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The 12 tribes across the earth go through the great tribulation and is raptured at the 6th seal. Those of the nation of Israel remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

 

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

And where is the scriptural evidence?

Matthew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 12

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

 

Romans 11 is better at defining the effects of the hardening and it's purpose but does not assist in rendering your conclusions valid. The hardening serves a clear purpose:

Yes the hardening serves a clear purpose and that purpose cannot take place until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

 

 

[The Light]

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

It's also not the dire prediction you would have others believe. Hear what Paul says about that:

Dire prediction? I'm talking scriptural facts.

 

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

 

"Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

The trouble here is one of belief, not an undefined moment of 'fullness of the Gentiles', as though the fulness of the Gentiles is an elevated position above the natural branches:

Most of the natural branches that have their blindness removed, cannot have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

On 6/6/2025 at 3:26 AM, Diaste said:

Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 

21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.

I'm thinking you may have inadvertently missed Paul's full exposition of the concepts in Romans 11. No matter. It happens. 

No. I didn't miss anything.

Most of Israel is currently blind. They cannot have their blindness removed and be regrafted until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The rapture of the Church will cause jealously of the Jews as they will miss the summer harvest.

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/7/2025 at 10:56 PM, Montana Marv said:

Not Scriptural supported.  All conjecture.

The for you/these are the N.T. Believers, see v, 16; they are given a Counselor, the Spirit of Truth.   2000 years to construct something which God can created by His own mouth.  Say it and it is done.

Shalom, @Montana Marv.

People come to these assumptions "all on their own" (with help from years and years of unbiblical teaching handed down from one teacher to the next).

God CAN create something by His own mouth; HOWEVER, even in the original Creation, it all took SIX DAYS to accomplish, by HIS choice, as each complete system was added to the mix.

Yeeshuwa` SAID, "I go to prepare a place for you"! The Greek words are "πορεύομαι ἑτοιμάσαι τόπον ὑμῖν" = "poreuomai etoimasai topon humin" = "I-am-going-myself to-make-ready a-place for-you-(plural)." Now, the idea behind the word "etoimasai" is to prepare a place for each one of us individually.

He's been doing this, or at least supervising this, with His messengers doing the work, for almost 2,000 years now! He's making each decision about each person's "place" PERSONALLY and as their choices in their lives are made. He's taking His time to get each place JUST RIGHT for each one of God's children.

This IS biblical because God doesn't say "<POOF!> All done!" He TAKES HIS TIME, because even though He knows people's decisions before they make them, He doesn't count them made until they've made them! He RESPECTS their free choice, whether they choose rightly or wrongly!

On 6/7/2025 at 10:56 PM, Montana Marv said:

Not seen/reported by John when taken into Heaven.

Well, if you're talking about His working on the New Jerusalem, John DOESN'T see that because He is viewing the END, when the New Jerusalem is practically finished and is on its way to earth. Most of His time is seen in the throneroom of God and the Lamb, any way, whether in the New Jerusalem or on the earth on the top of Mount Zion in old Jerusalem.

"Heaven" is NOT A PLACE! The "heaven" is the Greek word "οὐρανός" or "ouranos," which means "sky," just as Yeeshuwa` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4! It's the ATMOSPHERE first in which weather occurs and birds fly, but at night, it includes what we see THROUGH the atmosphere!

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "ek tou ouranou" = "from the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, '[It will be] fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = "ho ouranos" = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, '[It will be] foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = "ho ouranos" = "the sky") is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "tou ouranou" = "of-the sky"); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

(Just a question to ponder: Why did the translators use "heaven" in verse 1 but chose to use "sky" in verses 2 and 3 for the SAME GREEK WORD? Interesting, isn't it?)

John didn't report that he was "taken into Heaven," as most understand it today. The Greek wording in Revelation 4:1 is "4:1   Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἰδού, θύρα ἠνεῳγμένη ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ ἡ φωνὴ ἡ πρώτη ἣν ἤκουσα ὡς σάλπιγγος λαλούσης μετ᾽ἐμοῦ λέγουσα, Ἀνάβα ὧδε καὶ δείξω σοι ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα." =

4:1 "Meta tauta eidon kai idou, thura heeneoogmenee en too ouranoo kai hee foonee hee prootee heen eekousa hoos salpiggos lalousees met' emou legousa, 'Anaba hoode kai deixoo soi ha dei genesthai meta tauta.'" =

"After these-things I-saw and look!, an-opening was-opened-up in the sky and the sound the first that I-heard like a-trumpet/shofar was-speaking with me saying, 'Come-up here and I-will-show to-you-(singular) things-which it-is-necessary are-coming after these-things.'"

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this about "a door,"

"θύρα, θύρας, ἡ (from θύω to rush in, properly, that through which a rush is made; hence, German Thür (English door; Curtius, § 319))."

Technically, we don't go through a door; we go through a DOORWAY when the door is open.

The next verse says, "4:2   καὶ εὐθέως ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἰδού, θρόνος ἔκειτο ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καθήμενος" =

"4:2  kai eutheoos egenomeen en pneumati kai idou, thronos ekeito en too ouranoo kai epi tou thronou katheemenos" =

"And immediately I-was on a-wind and look!, a-throne was-set in the sky and upon the throne He-sat."

So, he was CALLED up, and on a wind, he went through the opening in the sky and saw the one sitting upon the throne.

On 6/7/2025 at 10:56 PM, Montana Marv said:

The Temple in Jerusalem  Ezk 43: 1-7.

So what you are implying is the Bride will be in (your view of the unfinished New Jerusalem in Heaven); Then will return with Christ to this earth, and not be in (your unfinished New Jerusalem); Later to dwell in the fully constructed New Jerusalem.

Why would Christ want us His Bride living/dwelling in an unfinished building, when all others enter when it is fully constructed?  That after the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Read the last two chapters of Ezekiel. They end with this:

Ezekiel 48:30-35 (KJV)

30 And these [are] the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures. 31 And the gates of the city [shall be] after the names of the tribes of Israel:
three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates;
and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates;
one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, [with] their three gates;
one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

35 [It was] round about eighteen thousand [measures]: and the name of the city from [that] day [shall be], "The LORD [is] there" (Hebrew: יְהוָה שָׁמָּה = "YHWH shaammaah").

This will be a SCALE MODEL of the New Jerusalem that will be in the Land for a thousand years BEFORE the New Sky and the New Earth with its New Jerusalem landing upon it. This city, "Yahuwh-shaammaah," shall exist WITHIN the borders of modern Israel, with the Mediterranean Sea on the west and the once-Dead Sea on the east. This is what one can learn from the rest of the last two chapters.

The New Jerusalem, when it lands, will stretch from the southern shore of the Black Sea to the southern border of Egypt, and from about a third of the Mediterranean Sea (which won't exist anymore) to the middle of Iran! If it is centered at the current coordinates for old Jerusalem, it will be visible from Norway to Zimbabwe, from Morocco to China! When one is standing near it, the New Jerusalem will cover a THIRD of the visible sky! It will tower over any existing mountains! Mount Everest is about 5.5 miles high. This city will be almost 1,380 miles high at its center! 

Even when it has landed, much of it will still be outside of the bulk of earth's atmosphere! Thus, it will still be "Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ" = "Ierousaleem epouranioo" = "Jerusalem above-the-sky!" (Hebrews 12:22).

But, this city doesn't land nor is it in use until AFTER there is a New Earth! When it lands, the pearl doors will be rolled away and the angels will stand watch at the gates. One only goes into the city through the "blood" of the jasper walls, and entrance is through the Resurrection, which the gates commemorate!

Knowing that the walls have a length of 1,379.8686... miles and the width is the same, then its perimeter will be 4 x 1,379.8686... miles = 5,519.4747... miles and if one divides this by twelve, one will get almost 460 miles (459.956228... miles) from the center of one gate to the center of the nearest gate, however wide the gates will be! That's farther away than Boston, MA, is from Buffalo, NY, and almost as far as Dallas, TX, is from Memphis, TN! So, don't miss your exit!