BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[WilliamL]

On 6/3/2025 at 5:48 PM, Keras said:

I base my interpretation of Daniel 9:27 on the entire Bible narrative of God's Plans for His faithful peoples. 

Being pedantic about exact meanings of ancient words, is a dead end rabbit trail.

In other words, your opinion about what biblical texts mean is based upon your understanding about what they SHOULD mean. (Whew!)

On 6/4/2025 at 12:20 AM, Retrobyter said:

WilliamL, you have a detailed investigation into the Hebrew, but not from a Hebrew's understanding of the words.

Then show which ones were in error, not just claim it to be so.

On 6/4/2025 at 12:20 AM, Retrobyter said:

And, a word-for-word translation follows: ...

27 "And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many a-seven one and-in-middle of-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-cease sacrifice and-gift and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-unto-end and-that-determined shall-be-poured upon-desolate."

This looks like a computer-generated interpretation, which does not (is unable to) take into account the grammatical relationship between the words. For example:

…וְעַל/And upon/over כְּנַף/a wing/corner/border, שִׁקּוּצִים/abominable things/idols of מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer [Polel verb stem (like Piel: intensive) Active Participle ms]…

“… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…”

Comment: All kinds of presumptions have been imposed by different translators upon this phrase. For example, עַל means “upon, over,” never “for” or “by.” (Compare what your Bible says.)

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

שִׁקּוּצִים is plural, not singular. Although many people presume that this phraseשִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם/shiqqutzim məshomame is equivalent to the similar-sounding phrase שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם/shiqqutz shomame of Daniel 12:11, they are significantly different. Only the latter phrase fulfills the prophecy by Jesus about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Matt. 24:15 Both shiqqutz and shomame are singular and lack the prefix ה, so shomame can act as an attributive participle, thus as a modifier of shiqqutz: “a desolating abomination” = “an abomination of desolation.”

In contrast, 9:27ʼs shiqqutzim is plural, while məshomame is singular, so cannot be its modifier: it has to be a noun, “destroyer.” (Attributive participles must agree in number – both being singular or plural; in gender – both being masculine or feminine; and in definiteness – both having or not having the definite articleה . See Part 4 for the three kinds of participles.)

The NIVʼs “an abomination that causes desolation” utterly corrupts the meaning of the Hebrew text. The NIV rejects the Hebrew, following the Greek Septuagint, which grossly varies from the Hebrew text of the Book of Daniel. Contrary to the understanding of many people, the original Septuagint scholars did not translate anything beyond the Torah, the five books of Moses. Translations of the other Old Testament books were added later by unknown translators at unknown times. Those translations significantly varied in quality.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

If find anything grammatically in error in the above, please explain your reasons for believing so.

Edited June 10 by WilliamL

[Keras]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

In other words, your opinion about what biblical texts mean is based upon your understanding about what they SHOULD mean. (Whew!)

This is a rude and untrue accusation. 

Understanding the Prophesies correctly, requires a knowledge of ALL the scriptures pertaining to the subject. I don't claim to know every nuance, but having written over 800 articles on the Prophetic Word, I can claim to understand the basic Plan of God for the end times. I can assert:

that the scriptures do not say the Church will be raptured to heaven,

Most Prophecy remains unfulfilled,

the Jews will not be forgiven and redeemed;

 We are not in the Millennium now,

We are not yet in the new Covenant with God,

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem,

There will again be offerings and sacrifices made in the Temple,

The Holy Land is our Christian heritage.

The dead have no consciousness, 

The Anti-Christ will not be a Jew.

The glorious Return of Jesus will not be unexpected.,

The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event and will commence all the end times.

Anyone who believes otherwise is deceived and has failed to comprehend the Truths of Bible Prophecy. 

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

God CAN create something by His own mouth; HOWEVER, even in the original Creation, it all took SIX DAYS to accomplish, by HIS choice, as each complete system was added to the mix.

But you are giving Christ 2000 years or more to build the New Jerusalem,  Not a very good comparison.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeeshuwa` SAID, "I go to prepare a place for you"! The Greek words are "πορεύομαι ἑτοιμάσαι τόπον ὑμῖν" = "poreuomai etoimasai topon humin" = "I-am-going-myself to-make-ready a-place for-you-(plural)." Now, the idea behind the word "etoimasai" is to prepare a place for each one of us individually.

Plural for the One Bride, which is made up of many many Jews and Gentiles.  The New Jerusalem is not occupied until after the formation of the New Heaven and the New Earth. It is for all the Just from Adam to when the camp of God is surrounded at the end of the 1000 years (Rev 20:7-9).  John sees the Lamb/Christ sitting on the Throne in Heaven and this before the scroll is even opened, he does not mention a Temple, which is God and the Lamb in the New Jerusalem..

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

But, this city doesn't land nor is it in use until AFTER there is a New Earth! When it lands, the pearl doors will be rolled away and the angels will stand watch at the gates. One only goes into the city through the "blood" of the jasper walls, and entrance is through the Resurrection, which the gates commemorate!

But you said we as Believers occupy this New Jerusalem when it is being built.  Now you say it will not be in use until after it comes down.  See below

On 6/7/2025 at 8:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

The main problem here is that all the Just from all the history of mankind will occupy this New Jerusalem, not just Believers/the Bride.  And we do not get an early room.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

This is a rude and untrue accusation. 

Understanding the Prophesies correctly, requires a knowledge of ALL the scriptures pertaining to the subject. I don't claim to know every nuance, but having written over 800 articles on the Prophetic Word, I can claim to understand the basic Plan of God for the end times. I can assert:

that the scriptures do not say the Church will be raptured to heaven,

Most Prophecy remains unfulfilled,

the Jews will not be forgiven and redeemed;

 We are not in the Millennium now,

We are not yet in the new Covenant with God,

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem,

There will again be offerings and sacrifices made in the Temple,

The Holy Land is our Christian heritage.

The dead have no consciousness, 

The Anti-Christ will not be a Jew.

The glorious Return of Jesus will not be unexpected.,

The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event and will commence all the end times.

Anyone who believes otherwise is deceived and has failed to comprehend the Truths of Bible Prophecy. 

Thus saith Keras. Wrongly so on a number of the above points. As will be proven in due time, probably within well under 7 years.

[Keras]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Thus saith Keras. Wrongly so on a number of the above points. As will be proven in due time, probably within well under 7 years.

Thus saith Keraz, opposing false teachings, with scriptural proofs on all the above points

As for timing, we are just waiting for the inevitable showdown in the Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:1-5, vividly describe how the Lord will respond to it.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

In other words, your opinion about what biblical texts mean is based upon your understanding about what they SHOULD mean. (Whew!)

Shalom, @WilliamL.

Not for me, bro'. My understanding about what the text means COMES from those who DO know the language, not from my understanding. I am no expert in Hebrew, any more than most US citizens are experts in English. However, I do know how to use both languages to convey a topic to another person. I am a student of Hebrew only, just as I am a student of English. (One of my Hebrew teachers was a man named Michael who was a "Sabra" from Haifa, Israel.)

Regarding the proper use of English, do you know how many times I've cringed at the misuse of commas in these posts (not yours, just posts in general)?! Some posters don't use commas AT ALL! It drives me CRAZY! MOST don't even know what an appositive is and how it is to be set off from the rest of the sentence with commas!

I feel the same way when I read most translations (including the KJV) with how the translators took liberties with the Hebrew text.

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

Then show which ones were in error, not just claim it to be so.

This looks like a computer-generated interpretation, which does not (is unable to) take into account the grammatical relationship between the words. For example:

…וְעַל/And upon/over כְּנַף/a wing/corner/border, שִׁקּוּצִים/abominable things/idols of מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer [Polel verb stem (like Piel: intensive) Active Participle ms]…

“… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…”

 

The Hebrew word "כְּנַף" or "knaf" (as I transliterate it for pronunciation) has its primary meaning to be "wing"; however, it's not a folded wing, but a "spread-out wing" in flight! That's when a "כְּנַף" is most noticeable. It is used in Daniel as an analogy for the "abominations from-desolation," the mem as a prefix for "min," and this was how our Lord used it in Matthew 23, when He was addressing the "abominable things" of the P'rushiym (the Pharisees) and transcribers of the Law, OVER which He pronounced them "Desolate." (Matthew 23:38).

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

Comment: All kinds of presumptions have been imposed by different translators upon this phrase. For example, עַל means “upon, over,” never “for” or “by.” (Compare what your Bible says.)

My Bible IS the Hebrew Bible; versions I use here are for the understanding of those with whom I write. I primarily use the KJV in posts because I grew up with it, and it's still considered in the public domain. However, I quote from the versions others use from time to time because that is their vocabulary.

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

True. However, in English, the participle form, normally used as an adjective, can also be used as a gerund, which acts as a noun, such as "the coming of the Lord." In those cases when the gerund is being singled-out, a definite article is often added to show its nature as a gerund, as I did within the quotes above. It was not uncommon in the Elizabethean times, as we find in Shakespeare's works, who was a contemporary to the translation of the King James Authorized Version of the Bible.

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

שִׁקּוּצִים is plural, not singular. Although many people presume that this phrase שִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם/shiqqutzim məshomame is equivalent to the similar-sounding phrase שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם/shiqqutz shomame of Daniel 12:11, they are significantly different. Only the latter phrase fulfills the prophecy by Jesus about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Matt. 24:15 Both shiqqutz and shomame are singular and lack the prefix ה, so shomame can act as an attributive participle, thus as a modifier of shiqqutz: “a desolating abomination” = “an abomination of desolation.”

I agree that it is plural in Hebrew, but I don't confuse the two. In fact, I'm with you about the need to keep them separate. Furthermore, I see Daniel 12:11 as an extension of Daniel 11:31, which was during the time of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" in 167 B.C.E. In Daniel 11:31, Daniel is first informed of the coming the devastation that Antiochus causes when He raised the image of Zeus in the Temple and sacrificed the pig upon the altar. But, Daniel 12:11 is a REPEAT of this in shortened form, adding the lengths of time, almost as an afterthought before leaving Daniel.

Also, one needs to understand these words as independent words, each with their own meanings and not view them as labels. The label "Abomination of Desolation," commonly abbreviated to "AoD" on these forums, diminishes the fact that these words are used INDEPENDENTLY in other locations. Also, because we seldom use these words in everyday speech, such disuse lends itself to viewing them as a label!

And, another problem is that Greek gets in the way. Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was quoted in translation into Greek as...
"Ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ" or ...
"Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma (s.) tees ereemooseoos (s.) to hreethen dia Danieel tou profeetou estos en topoo hagioo"
This should be translated word-for-word into ...
"When therefore ye-shall-see the abomination of-the desolation that-one spoken through Daniel the prophet is in a-place holy"
And, that was translated into KJV English as ...
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place." 

It's basically said IN REVERSE on purpose! See, it was the abominations of the scribes and Pharisees that led to Yeeshuwa` pronouncing them "Desolate" in Matthew 23:38, predicted in Daniel 9:27, but it would be the "desolation" they would now experience that would lead to the "abomination" - the HORROR - of the Temple's desecration and destruction, predicted by the Messiah in Matthew 24:15! And, that was fulfilled in 70 A.D:

The Roman Gentiles came into the Temple grounds, and desecrated it with the raising of the Roman Legion's Eagle within the Temple grounds. This defiled the Temple. Then, while it is debatable who started the fire, fire destroyed the Temple, and the soldiers were tearing down the stones of the Temple to get at the gold that had melted and ran down between the stones!

This is why it is indeed from Daniel 9:27, because those abominations had already led to the desolation in Matthew 23:38. Matthew 24:15 just predicted the aftermath of that period of desolation (which we're still in, by the way). See, Yeeshuwa` followed His pronunciation of being "desolate" with Matthew 23:39:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

And, He was quoting from Psalm 118:26, and here is that verse in context:

Psalm 118:22-27 (KJV)

 22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner (the capstone).
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes.
24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: # = "" = ""), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
27 God [is] the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar.

The Hebrew is: 

22אֶ֭בֶן מָאֲס֣וּ הַבֹּונִ֑ים הָ֝יְתָ֗ה לְרֹ֣אשׁ פִּנָּֽה׃

23מֵאֵ֣ת יְ֭הוָה הָ֣יְתָה זֹּ֑את הִ֖יא נִפְלָ֣את בְּעֵינֵֽינוּ׃

24זֶה־הַ֭יֹּום עָשָׂ֣ה יְהוָ֑ה נָגִ֖ילָה וְנִשְׂמְחָ֣ה בֹֽו׃

25אָנָּ֣א יְ֭הוָה הֹושִׁ֘יעָ֥ה נָּ֑א אָֽנָּ֥א יְ֝הוָ֗ה הַצְלִ֘יחָ֥ה נָּֽא׃

26בָּר֣וּךְ הַ֭בָּא בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה בֵּ֝רַֽכְנוּכֶ֗ם מִבֵּ֥ית יְהוָֽה׃

27אֵ֤ל ׀ יְהוָה֮ וַיָּ֪אֶר לָ֥נוּ אִסְרוּ־חַ֥ג בַּעֲבֹתִ֑ים עַד־קַ֝רְנֹ֗ות הַמִּזְבֵּֽחַ׃

But, what He tells them they must say before He returns is "מִבֵּ֥ית יְהוָֽה" or "from-House of-YHWH," meaning "from the Temple." That means that they can't have said it, yet, for the Temple is still not built!

And, the words "בָּר֣וּךְ הַ֭בָּא" ("bawruwkh haba'" translated as "blessed is he that cometh") are used in every airport and seaport in Israel in the plural, saying "bawruwkhiym haba'iym," "Welcome, visitors!":

They won't see Him come back until they can WELCOME Him back and that from the rebuilt Temple!

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

In contrast, 9:27ʼs shiqqutzim is plural, while məshomame is singular, so cannot be its modifier: it has to be a noun, “destroyer.” (Attributive participles must agree in number – both being singular or plural; in gender – both being masculine or feminine; and in definiteness – both having or not having the definite articleה . See Part 4 for the three kinds of participles.)

Sorry, the end of Daniel 9:27 is not about the "destroyer"; it is about the "destroyed!" It's predicting the time that they would suffer "until the end" for being pronounced "desolate."

On 6/10/2025 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

 

The NIVʼs “an abomination that causes desolation” utterly corrupts the meaning of the Hebrew text. The NIV rejects the Hebrew, following the Greek Septuagint, which grossly varies from the Hebrew text of the Book of Daniel. Contrary to the understanding of many people, the original Septuagint scholars did not translate anything beyond the Torah, the five books of Moses. Translations of the other Old Testament books were added later by unknown translators at unknown times. Those translations significantly varied in quality.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

If find anything grammatically in error in the above, please explain your reasons for believing so.

I agree with you about the NIV. It's backwards.

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

But you are giving Christ 2000 years or more to build the New Jerusalem,  Not a very good comparison.

Shalom, @Montana Marv.

Yes! He is giving special attention to prepare a place for EVERY new believer who comes to Him for His Sacrifice to be applied to their lives! How many could that be in a single year? And, we're talking about almost 2000 years of new believers! This is a HUGE CITY, and there's at least a "room" or a "mansion" for every single one of them!

22 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Plural for the One Bride, which is made up of many many Jews and Gentiles.  The New Jerusalem is not occupied until after the formation of the New Heaven and the New Earth. It is for all the Just from Adam to when the camp of God is surrounded at the end of the 1000 years (Rev 20:7-9).  John sees the Lamb/Christ sitting on the Throne in Heaven and this before the scroll is even opened, he does not mention a Temple, which is God and the Lamb in the New Jerusalem..

I quite agree!

22 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

But you said we as Believers occupy this New Jerusalem when it is being built.  Now you say it will not be in use until after it comes down.  See below

The main problem here is that all the Just from all the history of mankind will occupy this New Jerusalem, not just Believers/the Bride.  And we do not get an early room.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I'll just remind you that I do not believe in the continuity of life! A person lives; a person dies; and then he or she must be resurrected when the Messiah returns. ALL those who belong to Him will be resurrected, and that includes ALL who have ever made a sacrifice in anticipation of the Messiah's Sacrifice, for God's justification of an individual on the Messiah's behalf! David talked about this; so, it is NOT restricted to "New Testament saints" only!

[Diaste]

On 6/6/2025 at 8:45 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Diaste.

Why is it that people continually think that "Heaven" is a PLACE? The common explanation for a "third heaven" is what C. I. SCOFIELD said in his notes for 2 Corinthians 12:2: "1st heaven, of clouds; 2nd heaven, of stars; 3rd heaven, God's abode." He has NO Scripture backing up this claim!

It only SEEMED like he was right, and everybody jumped on the bandwagon! While science was making strides in exploring "outer space" above the atmosphere, Christians were making inroads into accepting that "heaven" was actually "Heaven," a place where God dwelt.

Where's the SCRIPTURAL evidence? I looked up EVERY REFERENCE to "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly" in the Bible. Then, I looked up every Hebrew word and every Greek word that was used for these translations, through the use of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance BY HAND before I even knew about personal computers, when I was in high school (from 1975 through 1976). Phones, short for telephones, were toaster sized contraptions that sat on the desk or hung on the wall! 

THROUGH CONTEXT, I came up with the truth of their definitions, and the evidence was overwhelming! In both the Hebrew word "שָׁמָיִם" or "shaamaayim," (Genesis 1:6-8, 20) and the Greek word "οὐρανός" or "ouranos" (Matthew 16:1-4), it's conclusively clear that BOTH words mean simply "the sky." As is clear from context in the Hebrew texts, words were added to suggest "outer space," giving "שְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמָיִם" or "shmeey hashaamaayim," "heaven of heavens," and in Greek texts, primariliy those from Paul's writings, a prefix, namely "epi," was added to suggest the same, forming the adjective, "ἐπουράνιος" or "epouranios." I tried everything to get to the same conclusion that C. I. Scofield had come to, and NOTHING was working!

I noticed, for instance, that there was "ouranos," "mesouranos," and "epourios," and though MAYBE the "mesouranos," meaning "middle of the sky," might actually refer to the "heaven of stars," and "epouranios" may refer to above that as "God's abode," but, of course, the contexts did not support that theory. Instead, I learned that "mesouranos" was where the birds fly (Revelation 19:17), and "epouranios" was where the sun, moon, and stars were (1 Corinthians 15:40-41)!

Then, I read 2 Peter 3:3-13, and I found someone who knew about and shared what the true "third heaven" was:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

He presents the picture that there are THREE AGES, with the first two ending in cataclysms, the first one of excessive water, and the second one of excessive fire:

So, I will take Peter's word over that of C. I. Scofield.

God doesn''t have "an abode"; He doesn't NEED "an abode!" He is OMNIPRESENT throughout His Creation we call the "Universe!" He knows the least little neutrino or subatomic particle or photon in EVERY galaxy that exists! If one believes that He "abides" ANYWHERE, then he or she has too small a view of God!

I don't think I was arguing for that in my response to @The Light.

What I see is: "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

And: they are before the throne of God

For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd

This throne exists in time and space.

This is quite similar to throne in Rev 4, mentioned 10 times. So there is a clearly a throne and it has a place. 

I think it a disservice to the text to fail to apply context. Sure ouranos means sky, in context. Do you really think the very much physical throne of our Father is affixed to the place where birds fly? 

We also see the ones who conquered the beast standing here: "And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name."

Of course that's a simile but it also has a physical attribute of solidity. This isn't so many noble gasses, it's a wide expanse of something solid that is clear as glass. 

Also, John records "Then I saw heaven standing open". This seems to imply heaven was previously closed. That means our ability to view God's abode is supernaturally limited, barred from our perceptions. 

John records this as wrath is imminent: "The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up,". Obviously we are not able to see past the veil of the sky, which veil obscures the abode of God and the heavenly host from our view. 

Just because we aren't given every detail, scripture has more gaps and unknowns than bridges and knowns, doesn't mean we can simply throw away a cautious approach and plunge forward speculating. 

And please refrain from this sort of rebuttal: "If one believes that He "abides" anywhere, then he or she has too small a view of God!"

I was in a cult in my younger days and similar statements were always the club used to beat one back into line. 

Possibly I do have 'too small a view' but using statements that play on emotion or introduce a perceived lack is coercion, not discussion. 

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2025 at 10:03 AM, The Light said:

Dire prediction? I'm talking scriptural facts.

 

Most of the natural branches that have their blindness removed, cannot have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

No. I didn't miss anything.

Most of Israel is currently blind. They cannot have their blindness removed and be regrafted until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The rapture of the Church will cause jealously of the Jews as they will miss the summer harvest.

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Okay. 

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2025 at 9:57 AM, The Light said:

Blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The 144,000 which are of the 12 tribes across the earth are first fruits. 

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

First fruits and then the harvest.

Proverbs 3

9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Here is the harvest.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Those righteous that are harvested are singing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes across the earth. They are the seed of the woman Israel.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The woman Israel is in a place of protection and remains on the earth during the wrath of God. The dragon goes after the woman seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth some of which have their blindness removed.

Revelation 12

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The 12 tribes across the earth go through the great tribulation and is raptured at the 6th seal. Those of the nation of Israel remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

This is not evidence for what you say. You assume the 144k are part of some late in the game gathering from which the white, western, pretrib, dispensational 'church' is immune and previously removed. The 144k are the first taken of the only gathering in existence executed immediately prior to God's wrath.

You are consistent, but in error. All Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God, they are not a group with their own identity, they are Israel or they are not. 

On 6/9/2025 at 9:57 AM, The Light said:

 

Matthew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 12

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yes the hardening serves a clear purpose and that purpose cannot take place until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

The point being it's not the separation/replacement. Gentiles are grafted in, not a separate entity.