Church of Christ

[Guest shiloh357]

Children are innocent and unaware of sin

No offense, but that made me laugh out loud. I take it you've never raised a child??

I love 'em to death, but buddy, children sin. And I assure you they can be quite good at it.

Doesn't much matter, though. The Scripture is clear that every human being is born with the sin nature, apart from God and in need of a Savior. It's not the sin that condemns us, it's the nature we are born with.

What is your belief concerning babies and young children? Do they go to hell?

Fiosh, that is what you get from the doctrine of predestination. You see, in that belief system little children go to hell IF they were not predestined to go to heaven. The doctine of predestination teaches that before the foundations of the world God chose certain of us to be saved, and certain of us to be damned. So, those who are predestined to go to hell have no choice but to go to hell.

So if a baby was born and was not one of those chosen to be saved, then naturally that baby will go to hell.

I am not advocating for that teaching. In fact, I reject it completely.

[Work in Progress]

David rejoiced in the fact that he would see the child again; I don't think there is any other way to translate this.

ITA, Ronald. However, I don't think you can create a doctrine that all children automatically go to Heaven from that verse. You must take the whole of Scripture and base your doctrines on that. The book of Romans (among other passages) are full of the condition of man at birth and that no one is worthy, yet there are no verses saying some get a pass because of "innocence".

What of Samson, John, and others who were chosen by God before birth?

Great question. What of them? Evidently the Bible is true that God chose His to Himself long before anyone was born. Jesus said He chose His people - I trust Him.

I don't spend a lot of time worrying or arguing over it. We mortals will never totally understand God, Scripture says His ways are higher than our ways. I fear creating human standards and then holding God to them. He will work it all out and it will be Just.

So, those who are predestined to go to hell have no choice but to go to hell.

Shiloh, I personally believe Scripture says that everyone has a choice.

Thank you for your answer Fiosh.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

So, those who are predestined to go to hell have no choice but to go to hell.

Shiloh, I personally believe Scripture says that everyone has a choice.

Perhaps, but predestination does not. Predestination is the antithesis of choice.

[Work in Progress]

I believe both are taught by Scripture and I believe that Scripture contains no contradictions. I look forward to the day that we have all the answers.

[Smalcald]

Well we are not getting anywhere with baptism, predestination is more interesting. I think Shilo has made some good points on Baptism, and you have also, I disagree with both of you, but we all agree that we should be baptized, so why not leave it at that?

God exists in the past, the present and the future. God knows the total future and exists forever in all parts of time. We do have a choice, but God must already know which choice we end up making, unless God is somehow limited, is that predestination? I don't know, it is an interesting topic.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh has earlier abandoned a thread on baptism because he position ran out of steam. His position is once again faltering so he wants to shift the discussion to speculation instead of Scripture.

That

[kittylover0991]

Just want to add one thing about why this "discussion" is so important.

It really is important because it is man trying to interpret from the bible how to get to heaven. As we have seen in one post, it does really happen where someone get's saved and dies before baptism. It matters because someone doesn't accept Christ and get baptized right away anymore. Normally, one has to wait at least a week before the baptism is performed.

This subjebt is man trying to determine wether only Jesus can get us to heaven or wether WE have to do something else to. It does matter. Scripture is clear on what saves one from sin, however, there are still those who are not willing to accept scripture for what it says.

[kittylover0991]

Why does everyone assume that baptism automatically means "into water?" All it means is to be immersed to the point of change. Thus when used saying "Baptized into Christ" it means to be "fully emerged in Christ." The water baptism did, and still does, hold major significance in middle eastern culture. Then and now it signified the seriousness of a person's belief. Even today, a converted Muslim, if publically baptized, is only then recognized as a true convert (from the Muslim perspective).

Also, Horizon, you weasled out of that one quite well

I can say with certaintly that if a person has not accepted Christ prior to death he will go to hell. You, on the other hand, when faced with the question if a person was baptized or not, cannot answer it. The Bible gives us clear direction on what sends us to hell and what doesn't. Thus if Baptism is necessary for salvation, then we have to be baptized to be saved. It is that simple. If there is always an "exception", then why accept Christ in the first place? Why not just be a good person?

Which means that you believe severely retarded and mentally ill people; infants, very young children and even unborn babies go to hell.

I don't.

Who are you to assume they haven't accepted Christ?

You are of course right, ak, I cannot assume that. That does, however, get us into some very interesting territory.

BY the way, Amen about David rejoicing because he would see his child again.

We are all born sinners because of Adam(by one MAN sin entered into the world). However, babies have no concept of right or wrong. and therefore will not go to hell. Children on the other hand, understand the concept of right and wrong and are, therefore, condemned to hell untill they accept Christ because was not condemned by our unbelief, but rather, by our sin.

[Smalcald]

Just want to add one thing about why this "discussion" is so important.

It really is important because it is man trying to interpret from the bible how to get to heaven. As we have seen in one post, it does really happen where someone get's saved and dies before baptism. It matters because someone doesn't accept Christ and get baptized right away anymore. Normally, one has to wait at least a week before the baptism is performed.

This subjebt is man trying to determine wether only Jesus can get us to heaven or wether WE have to do something else to. It does matter. Scripture is clear on what saves one from sin, however, there are still those who are not willing to accept scripture for what it says.

And both sides of this debate say exactly what you are saying. What does scripture clearly say, what do the words in Acts, and Mark clearly say about what baptism does?

It seems to me that both sides of this debate have a house of cards they are trying to support with their idea about baptism. One side has an unbiblical concept called an age of accountability, which is never mentioned in the bible, but to keep the concept you must have baptism be an outward sign only. The other says that baptism is clearly needed for salvation and is needed to be saved, but yet that is contradicted by numerous passages which state that Christ alone has saved us and only unbelief can condemn us. Both positions are supported in scripture, so we have this debate, which convinces not one single person on this board, no one has changed their mind about what they already believe about baptism.

My point was simply that both sides have presented the biblical evidence, there is no need to further grind it out, it is up to us to simply read the bible for ourselves and make that decision. The thing is both sides agree that all Christians should and would seek baptism, so certainly if all are baptized that can be, God will sort out the full meaning, as long as we do seek baptism, and we all agree on that.

Predestination on the other hand is really interesting.

[other one]

and the discussion will be and has been just as fruitless