Salvation, Faith, Baptism

[nebula]

Just so you know, when you want to quote someone, hit the "Reply" button on the right hand corner of their post.

Then you can highlight and "Delete" those parts you do not want included.

Sound good?

'Oh, BTW, I didn't have any sense of God's presence during my confirmation as I did when I got immersed-baptised.)'

Just curious, but how do you distinguish your own emotion from what you perceive to be God's presence? I'm sure whoever did your re-baptism made sure it was an emotional moment for you.

OK sorry, but that was my knee-jerk reaction.

Does this mean you have never experienced the presence of God coming over you?

That's sad, because when you have - you will know the difference!

It's like a burst of joy and peace that supercedes any kind of adrenaline rush. Some people (who actually know) compare it to being drunk or being high - only without the side-effects (i.e. disengagement of the mind).

There have been times when I was in depression, yet when the praise and worship began it all flew away (that doesn't just "happen" with clinical depression). I could feel the Lord's presence around me, and I knew it wasn't some kind of emotional glee or anything. I've have emotional rushes, and I could tell the difference.

As for the baptisers - they didn't do a thing. They just held me, layed me under, lifted me up, and let me go, and taht was it.

But as I gained my footing I was suddenly filled with this "shot" of joy that completely suprised me. It was like getting a suprise electric shock - at least that's how it came (not how it felt).

But I guess if you never experienced anything like that, it would be hard for you to understand what I mean.

[Fiosh]

'Oh, BTW, I didn't have any sense of God's presence during my confirmation as I did when I got immersed-baptised.)'

Just curious, but how do you distinguish your own emotion from what you perceive to be God's presence? I'm sure whoever did your re-baptism made sure it was an emotional moment for you.

OK sorry, but that was my knee-jerk reaction.

Does this mean you have never experienced the presence of God coming over you?

That's sad, because when you have - you will know the difference!

It's like a burst of joy and peace that supercedes any kind of adrenaline rush. Some people (who actually know) compare it to being drunk or being high - only without the side-effects (i.e. disengagement of the mind).

But I guess if you never experienced anything like that, it would be hard for you to understand what I mean.

Not to be argumentative, Neb, but st. Worm does have a point. You cannot always trust your emotional response. God makes His Presence known in different ways, at different times, to different people. ( remember the passage about "God was in the still, small voice" ?). And, at times, He does not make His Presence known at all.

Yes, I have experienced that "spiritual adrenaline rush". I have also felt as though God was a million miles away; yet I know He is always near. In fact, He dwells within me. So, I disagree with you that you can "know" when He is near.

The fact that you can't remember your infant Baptism has no relationship whatsoever to its effect on you. I believe that Baptism imparts the Holy Spirit and special graces that bring you closer to God and help you resist sin. This is Biblical.

Those times that you can "feel" the anointing are awesome. But, is it not a greater faith to believe when you can't feel it? I think so.

I have often gone for long periods of time when I could not feel His Presence. I longed for it, I even begged for it. But it was as if He said, "My grace is sufficient for you". My faithfulness in those times has always been rewarded.

So, yes, I know what you refer to.

Baptism is not merely symbol, or an expression of faith. Scripture tells us that in Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and our sins are forgiven. (Acts 2:38) Baptism purifies, justifies and sanctifies.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that we have to "feel" it for it to be real.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Regardless of what we believe, baptism is what God intends it to be. And each Baptism has the same effect.

Peace,

Fiosh

[susansduval]

I'm going to give this one a shot! I am going to be baptized on New Years Day. I am a strong believer in baptism. Here is what I have read; Mark 16;16 "He Who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemed."

Acts 2;38 Then Peter said to them "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 28;19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

So the way i understand it is, baptizm is way to recieve the Holy Spirit, it's a "public" announcement of your renentance, an event to be shared, and a new way of life. (works)

Edited December 31, 2005 by susansduval

[Fiosh]

I'm going to give this one a shot! I am going to be baptized on New Years Day. I am a strong believer in baptism. Here is what I have read; Mark 16;16 "He Who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemed."

Acts 2;38 Then Peter said to them "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 28;19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

So the way i understand it is, baptizm is way to recieve the Holy Spirit, it's a "public" announcement of your renentance, an event to be shared, and a new way of life. (works)

...and forgiveness of sins.

Please come back after you are baptized so we can officially welcome you to the family!

[nebula]

Not to be argumentative, Neb, but st. Worm does have a point. You cannot always trust your emotional response.

IT WASN'T AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE!!!!

Sheesh - you guys are putting your biases into my statements. I'm not a new believer. I'm not an idiot. I'm not dilusional.

I know what happened.

If you can't take my word for it than there is nothing more to discuss on this matter.

God makes His Presence known in different ways, at different times, to different people.

I know that!

Been there . . . done that . . . learned it. . . .

( remember the passage about "God was in the still, small voice" ?). And, at times, He does not make His Presence known at all.

So? Does that negate my experience somehow?

Yes, I have experienced that "spiritual adrenaline rush". I have also felt as though God was a million miles away; yet I know He is always near. In fact, He dwells within me. So, I disagree with you that you can "know" when He is near.

You misinterpreted what I said. I know He "never leaves me nor forsakes me."

I was talking about Him doing something that I felt/ experience.

Big difference.

The fact that you can't remember your infant Baptism has no relationship whatsoever to its effect on you. I believe that Baptism imparts the Holy Spirit and special graces that bring you closer to God and help you resist sin. This is Biblical.

Well, if my peers in church had any devotion to the Lord that manifested the Holy Spirit in their lives, I might be inclined to agree with you.

And if I wasn't tormented by demons since longer than I can remember (wasn't freed from that for many, many years), I might believe there was something there.

But no, the Holy Spirit was a foreigner to me. I had to hear before I could believe and make my choice to follow and serve the Lord.

That's one of the big problems with churches. Children are "raised" as if Christian, yet never challenged to confess their sin before the Lord and receive His salvation. They think - "Gee, you've been baptised. That marks you as the Lord's." Right? Wrong!

***

OK, I'm calming down now....

Those times that you can "feel" the anointing are awesome. But, is it not a greater faith to believe when you can't feel it? I think so.

I don't think this was a matter of faith.

I mean, Jesus had an encounter with the Father when He was baptised.

So, why wouldn't Jesus do likewise for us?

You see, I wasn't expecting anything. Yet He did something to me, and I was like, "Wow! Cool!"

If my faith were in my infant baptism, I would have missed out on that encounter.

I'm glad I didn't!

I have often gone for long periods of time when I could not feel His Presence. I longed for it, I even begged for it. But it was as if He said, "My grace is sufficient for you". My faithfulness in those times has always been rewarded.

And this somehow discounts what happened to me?

So, yes, I know what you refer to.

Baptism is not merely symbol, or an expression of faith. Scripture tells us that in Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and our sins are forgiven. (Acts 2:38) Baptism purifies, justifies and sanctifies.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ok, explain to me something. When an infant is baptised, how does the infant first "repent." For that's what Peter said to do.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that we have to "feel" it for it to be real.

That's not what I said.

When one first repents and receives the Lord's salvation and makes Him the Lord of their life, does one have to "feel" it for it to be real? Of course not! But if someone does "feel" the Lord come on them, are you going to argue against their experience?

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Regardless of what we believe, baptism is what God intends it to be. And each Baptism has the same effect.

Each baptism is a special time between the person and the Lord.

It's like - for lack of a better analogy - each first kiss has the same effect, sure. But the first kiss for each couple is different and specific to them.

Would you have wanted your first kiss to have been something that you had no control over or rememberance of?

[kittylover0991]

Hey Susan! It's New Years Eve and before tommarow comes, I wanted to say welcome to the family! *jumps around with glee* *this little kitty has a new sister in Christ and her sister is going to get baptised!!!!!!* YIPPPEE!!!

No offense intended Fiosh, but I don't believe that someone gets saved when they are baptised. I love to see those people right after they get saved. They say, "I want to go tell my family" or "I want to go tell my friends" or even "I want to tell everyone I know so they can go to heaven too". Man's heart is changed when they accept Christ.

As for "feeling".. didn't many great people in the bible tell of the presense of God and how they could tell how he was working in their lives.. that he was there. Look at David for instance.

I must agree, we can not base our lives on "feelings", but we also have to remember that GOD gave us those feelings for a reason. They need to be used for good and not for evil. Feelings are a great when used for the glory of God alone I mean, seriously Can you imagine a world without feelings? I think He gave them to us for a reason :mgkey:

As for infant baptism, as I guess many know by now, I disagree with it. I am sorry I don't know much about theology and I am sorry that I don't know the "greater things" of the bible. But I do know that the bible says that whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I also know that I have many friends who were baptised as babies and they have run from the faith. I also know many who have never come back because their "church" was so corrupt. I have a friend who turned wiccan because of her so called "church" and is on her way to hell because she never accepted Christ.

As I said, I dont' know a lot of things about the bible or history for that matter, but after doing some research, I found out that from the time that Christ died on the cross, until the time of the first baby baby, that time period was about two hundred years. Was fascinates me is that for two hundred years from the start of the first "church"(ekklesia- called assembly), there were no baby baptisms. Why is that? From about the time of Christ for about two hundred years in the local churches, there were no such things as baby baptism. Can no one explain that to me? Why did the early church not baptism babies? Why did Jesus or John the Baptist not baptise babies?

Whoops, sorry, getting off on a rabbit trail

As for there should be a pinned thread, honestly, if I may say so myself, I kind of enjoy these threads. I have learned so much from these threads about baptism and I wonder if my pastor ever gets tired of me asking him questions from what I see on these threads DOn't get me wrong, I get tired of seeing the same arguement over and over when the bible clearly states about salvation and baptism(as I showed in the first post). However, the devil is the author of confusion and I think that we as Christians need to be spreading the truth. Are we not supposed to spread the gospel?

Ok... my view point... I give in Honestly, as I have said, I completely disagree with baby baptism. Actually, I disagree with baptism of anyone who has not accept Christ and on their way to heaven? What do I think?.. what does it matter?... What do I know? I know that the bible says that we are saved by works and it hurts me to know that there are people telling others that in order to go to heaven you only have ot be baptised or you have to be "good" as they say. It hurts me to know that I have friends dying and on their way to hell becuase of this and refuse to accept the truth of Christ because some man has gotten up in a pulpit, preaching in the name of Christ, a lie straight from the devil. I hate it, and I know I will offend some people. However, I would rather take that "chance" of offending someone, then to know that I could have been someone's last chance to hear the gospel and I didn't give it out of fear of offending someone. I love you all in the Lord. I really do, but this is ridicolous. Jesus, Peter(Friend of Jesus), Paul, John the Baptist, Stephen(full of faith), John, and all the other great men of the bible preached repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Not, be good and get to heaven. I know that many will just look at this post as someone just trying to start an arguement, or someone who is ignorant as to what the bible says, or as someone who is disrespectful of other. I have been caring too much for the past few years as to what others around me think. I need only care what God thinks. I am sinner just like the rest of us. However, I am sinner saved by grace, not by water in a baptismal tank. I am sinner saved by grace, who constantly falls. I am a sinner saved by grace, who is constantly lifted back up by my Savior. I am sinner saved by grace same as many of you. I am not, however, a sinner saved by water. I am not a sinner saved by giving to the poor or obedience. I am not a sinner saved by the lies of this world. I am sinner saved by grace, just trying to show others the truth that only the blood of Jesus on the cross can save one from their sins.

Yes, I went off on a rabbit trail. Whack me upside the head if you chose I promise I will stop "arguing" about this. Sorry if it seems as though I was. As many know, when I first went to church, I went "forward to salvation" as they say and I said that prayer. One year later, I was baptised. However, about four years later, I was doubting my salvation because I wasnt' sure I was serious when I prayed. Maybe it was becuase I had sin in my life, I don't know, but what I do know is that I worried abotu wehre I would spend eternity. I went and talked to someone and I said that "prayer"(I don't mean that a prayer saves you, I mean I am not sure if that is when I got saved). I am not sure if I got saved that day, but I do know I am saved. I just talked to my new youth pastor dealing with baptism and my Pastor(not youth pastor) is going to talk to my odl youth pastor and do some "research". I can say that I know for sure that if i died TODAY that i woudl go to heaven. Baptism will do nothing for me in that area. Yes, baptism is good. I believe we should all follow in believer's baptism. However, I do not believe that we are saved by baptism as the bible clearly states in the verses that I first posted.

[st. Worm]

quote:

"Would you have wanted your first kiss to have been something that you had no control over or rememberance of?"

When the most holy God, my creator and Savior is doing the kissing? You better believe I would want my first kiss (your term) to be completely in His control. What a silly thing to ask.

[st. Worm]

'Does this mean you have never experienced the presence of God coming over you?

That's sad, because when you have - you will know the difference!"

This is the same thing that Mormons say when they claim they have the truth about God. Unfortunately sin does not allow us to know the difference between our own emotion and God. Do you dispute Paul's writing to the Romans that we cannot truly know God through the creation or through our own internal knowledge? When snake handlers do their thing they truly believe they experience God. Using your thesis who can dispute them?

[other one]

I think it's about time we have a pinned topic on baptism, considering the numerous topics devoted to debating whether it is necessary for salvation or not.

Tess, if you do that will just be another pink bunny thread and go on and on and on like the "lost salvation" or "sabbath" threads. I think it is probably better to have them within other threads and that way when people have had their say the thread can go back to other discussions and not either be locked, closed or pink bunnied. Some things people will not yield on for they consider it basic to their particular religon..... it is problematic that we can't all agree even on these basic things.

THis will most likely be a 50 pager before it's through anyway.

Sam

[other one]

Baptism indeed is not a requirement but faith is and baptism works faith in infants. .

Can you show me scripture to explain this......