Predetermined?

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Hello Cats :il:

This is a very deep subject Sister very meaty indeed

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed into to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

For those God foreknew he also predestined

For those God foreknew he also predestined

For those God foreknew he also predestined

What does this foreknew imply?

Does it not imply that God knew us before the creation of the world?

So there are two possibilities

1) We existed before we where created in some "spiritual" realm? I think the mormons have that kind of doctrine.

2)God is independent of time and can see all history. He knows every person, their entire lives, their hearts and their decisions before they existed.

If the word forknew was taken out of that scripture than I would be a calvanist. Because calvanisim states that God predetermines ones beliefs, ones acceptance or not of Jesus as the Messiah. If God did this then there would be no need for foreknowledge of the person, if everyone was just zombies having no free will.

The word foreknew must be understood before we can understand the word predestined calvanists focus on predestined without giving the same focus to foreknew. What is more important? What word comes first in the scriptures?

"predestined to be conformed into to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

What is God predetermining here? Is he predetermining belief in Jesus? No he has predetermining those He foreknew to be conformed into the likeness of his Son, and that will happen

"30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

There is nothing inconsistent here the scripture is not saying that everyone He called will be predestined to the likeness of his Son. This scripture is referring specifically to the ones He forknew. They where called just like the rest but they believed. Those that where called and believed in Jesus are justified and those who believe in Jesus will be glorified they will be glorified by becoming the "likeness of his Son",

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[nebula]

Good point.

[OneAccord]

We must also remember that the children of Israel were given a choice in Duet.

I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you, I have set before you good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life, that you and your children may live.

This verse most certainly implies free will, and the part that Israel must play in their salvation, which I think reflects our own personal choice, even today as gentiles, that must be made.

Regarding this serpent seed idea that keeps coming into the mix of the discussion:

I like the concept of this serpent seed, it is an interesting term for what I believe to be the polluting of the race as in Gen 6, the sons of God mating with the daughters of men. God commanded the children of Israel to be pure from interbreeding with the Canaanites to keep their race pure. Of course they failed utterly to obey this. Thus this 'serpent seed' proliferated......

BUT I believe that God is able to and will heal, and purify, and justify and forgive those who CHOOSE LIFE, which is Jesus, regardless of 'serpent seed' ancestry. We are made a new creature.

As for predestination, this is indeed complex. I tend to think that the idea of predestination cheapens what the Lord did for us on the cross. As if to say, that He died only for the ones that He already knew were going to be His, and the rest are predestined for Hell. That seems to also negate the 'whosoever' in John 3:16.

I think George is in the right direction with it being somewhere in the middle, and something we probably won't understand until the day when all will be revealed to us.

[endure4salvation]

If everything is predetermined, then why would God make us go through this horrible 'trial and error period'? Why not just make us perfect in heaven and avoid this mess?

Predetermalism is uncompatible with a God of love, therefore, it is a false and dangerous doctrine.

Predestination is about a plan of salvation because God knew that we would mess up--he had to provide a way before he allowed Adam the choice to either accept or reject him.

A plan--not a person.

[Catsmeow]

I keep hearing about this seed and that seed. I had always thought the literal word "seed" referred to "sperm", (genetic material of the father).

I suggest the word, "seed" (in this context) is an adjective for the "spirit" of a man.

In other words, our sinful nature is indeed a nature wrought from Satan himself...a spirit of disobedience and rebellion.

When Jesus Christ died on that cross on Calvary, he not only justified us before the Father, he provided us a NEW nature...a holy nature, via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Before, when we were helpless and unable to do anything about our sin nature, we became NEW creations and now able and equipped to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

We are new "seed" (an adjective here). We are no longer fornicators, adulterers, greedy, immoral, etc. but we put on the "new man" and are continually being transformed into the likeness of Christ Jesus.

In a nutshell: I think the word, "seed" itself can be used in either a literal context (ex. seed of Abraham) or in a descriptive or figurative sense, "seed" referring to the "spirit" or "heart" of a man...(His nature).

[Guest soldierofGod]

I thought this forum might be different, but no. It is the same old thing, all the different beliefs want to get together for the cause of Christ. Well, there will only be one time when all the different beliefs will get together, that is after the Rapture when the anti-christ gets them together. I won't be here and until then I can not and will not put aside my beliefs, "for unity". I have said it b4, anyone who does not trust the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone for salvation will burn in the lake of fire. I don't care if you believe that or not. And anyone who is truly born-again will recognize error, whether RC or some charismatic movement. You are entitled to be wrong, but you will be eternally wrong. I therefore will not be in on these discussions anymore, because you can't argue with ignornace. Read your Bible(KJV) and ask God to show you the truth. I will continue to preach the truth until I hear the trumpet sound. You can all stay here and get together for the anti-cause. You say where is the Christian love, it is because of this love I proclaim truth to you.

Soldier of God

Listening for the trumpet (which will sound soon) :sam:

[Catsmeow]

SOG: You posted on the wrong thread. This isn't the "Catholic" thread. It wasn't talking about "Charismatics"...

Um, nope...not the "Wine bibbers" thread either.

We were discussing the topic of "predestination". But, hey...you want to hollar at some Catholics...okay.

I don't think any are posting on this particular topic, however.

[Crusader4Christ]

Whoa! SOG went totally hogwild there!

[Catsmeow]

He's on the wrong subject...he's off on some thing about Catholics and Charismatics and KJV's bibles...or something.

[Crusader4Christ]

I see.