Predetermined?

[eric]

Thank you William/Blindseeker for your reply. I'll just chew that over for a while. Read,study and inwardly digest as they say.

cheers.....eric

[Guest Duane]

It seems to me that you all want to side-track the issue, ignoring the words of our Lord in favor of the words of the men that came after Him.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is one instance. Here Jesus claims that all are branches of Himself, and that those that bear no fruit will be taken away.

There is no grafting in of branches, as claimed later in Romans.

There are branches that are taken away, and there are branches that are purged so that they will bring forth more fruit.

God does wish that everyone would come to Christ, but that does not mean that all will.

Yes, Jesus is called "God with us". But Jesus is still the Son of God, the begotten Son of God.

He is the vine, and His Father, God, is the husbandman. Jesus comes forth from the Father, is one with the Father, but is still unique of the Father.

Jesus Himself puts a distinction between God and Himself, and it is God that Jesus worships. Jesus does not worship Himself, but the one that sent Him.

[jesussaves]

Thank you, blindseeker, for looking up the scriptures for what I said, and posting them.

:-)

Jesus Saves

[BlindSeeker]

It seems to me that you all want to side-track the issue, ignoring the words of our Lord in favor of the words of the men that came after Him.

Perhaps that is because you see everything through judgmental glasses.

We have simply reasoned this back and forth in with honorable spirit toward each other.

What is it you are doing?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is one instance. Here Jesus claims that all are branches of Himself, and that those that bear no fruit will be taken away.

There is no grafting in of branches, as claimed later in Romans.

There are branches that are taken away, and there are branches that are purged so that they will bring forth more fruit.

God does wish that everyone would come to Christ, but that does not mean that all will.

You do skip a very imortant detail. Jesus was speaking to His disciples, a position which He established clear conditions for one to comply with in order to be one --

• John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
  
  Lu 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple.
  
  Lu 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.
  
  
  He goes on to tell how one abides in Him, "If ye abide in me, and My words abide in you." Jesus' words abide in us by our "continuing" in them.
  
  Go ahead and check . . . it is the same Greek word.
  
  
  • Joh 15:7 If ye abide <meno> in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
    9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue <meno> ye in my love.
    

So, Duane, you do err in assuming that Jesus was referring to the mass of humanity as the branches . . . as well as in your comprehension of this man called Jesus.

Yes, Jesus is called "God with us". But Jesus is still the Son of God, the begotten Son of God.

He is the vine, and His Father, God, is the husbandman. Jesus comes forth from the Father, is one with the Father, but is still unique of the Father.

Yes, God tabernacled among men in the frailty of human flesh. In that earthen vessel was the fullness of divinity bodily. That earthen vessel, made of humanitys frail flesh and blood which was locked in time and space was only begotten once when God was manifested in the flesh.

Jesus Himself puts a distinction between God and Himself, and it is God that Jesus worships. Jesus does not worship Himself, but the one that sent Him.

Yes, that earthen vessel of flesh and blood locked in time and space was infinitely distinctly different in matter from the infinite Holy Spirit which inhabits eternity and all space . . . but the Spirit with in that vessel was the self-same only true God.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.

[traveller]

There is no grafting in of branches, as claimed later in Romans.

Duane, do you think the book of Romans to be in error? Do you doubt Paul's writings?

[nebula]

Gotta be careful about mixing metaphors.

Jesus spoke of "the vine" - most likely grapevine.

Paul spoke of an olive tree.

Two different illustrations for two different purposes.

[BlindSeeker]

Gotta be careful about mixing metaphors.

Jesus spoke of "the vine" - most likely grapevine.

Paul spoke of an olive tree.

Two different illustrations for two different purposes.

Amen.

[traveller]

You are correct Neb and William! *I knew that!* Thank you for the correction family. Actually, I was considering this statement combined with this statement.

It seems to me that you all want to side-track the issue, ignoring the words of our Lord in favor of the words of the men that came after Him.

There is no grafting in of branches, as claimed later in Romans.

I know that there are those that throw out all of Pauls' writings.

[Guest Duane]

It seems to me that you all want to side-track the issue, ignoring the words of our Lord in favor of the words of the men that came after Him.

Perhaps that is because you see everything through judgmental glasses.

We have simply reasoned this back and forth in with honorable spirit toward each other.

What is it you are doing?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is one instance. Here Jesus claims that all are branches of Himself, and that those that bear no fruit will be taken away.

There is no grafting in of branches, as claimed later in Romans.

There are branches that are taken away, and there are branches that are purged so that they will bring forth more fruit.

God does wish that everyone would come to Christ, but that does not mean that all will.

You do skip a very imortant detail. Jesus was speaking to His disciples, a position which He established clear conditions for one to comply with in order to be one --

• John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
  
  Lu 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple.
  
  Lu 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.
  
  
  He goes on to tell how one abides in Him, "If ye abide in me, and My words abide in you." Jesus' words abide in us by our "continuing" in them.
  
  Go ahead and check . . . it is the same Greek word.
  
  
  • Joh 15:7 If ye abide <meno> in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
    9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue <meno> ye in my love.
    

So, Duane, you do err in assuming that Jesus was referring to the mass of humanity as the branches . . . as well as in your comprehension of this man called Jesus.

Yes, Jesus is called "God with us". But Jesus is still the Son of God, the begotten Son of God.

He is the vine, and His Father, God, is the husbandman. Jesus comes forth from the Father, is one with the Father, but is still unique of the Father.

Yes, God tabernacled among men in the frailty of human flesh. In that earthen vessel was the fullness of divinity bodily. That earthen vessel, made of humanitys frail flesh and blood which was locked in time and space was only begotten once when God was manifested in the flesh.

Jesus Himself puts a distinction between God and Himself, and it is God that Jesus worships. Jesus does not worship Himself, but the one that sent Him.

Yes, that earthen vessel of flesh and blood locked in time and space was infinitely distinctly different in matter from the infinite Holy Spirit which inhabits eternity and all space . . . but the Spirit with in that vessel was the self-same only true God.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.

I think we all see things through judgemental glasses to some extent.

I know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples, but I think He was speaking of the whole of humanity.

He is speaking of the branches that abide in Him versus the branches that do not. And it is the branches that do not abide that are removed and cast aside. But they are branches that originally were a part of Him in the first place.

He does not speak of branches that are grafted in, but only of branches that are cast aside.

The branches that abide in Him are the disciples, and of Him, while the branches that are cast aside are of the wicked one and so are removed and cast aside because they are not of Him.

The branches that are of Him are of the Holy Spirit, while the branches that abide not in Him are not.

The grafting in of branches does not appear until later.

I do not agree with all that is written by Paul, and I do not disagree with all of it either. But there are some fundamental differences that bother me. This is one of them.

Of the rest of your post I fully agree, except that there will always be a distinction between Father and Son, as the Son sits on the right hand of the Father and not on the throne of the Almighty.

[Catsmeow]

I do not agree with all that is written by Paul, and I do not disagree with all of it either. But there are some fundamental differences that bother me. This is one of them.

Duane,

There's no pickin'-n-choosin' with scripture. You can't say, "I agree with this part but not with that part".

You either take all of scripture or you reject it outright.

Friend, it's okay to say you don't understand something Paul has written.

Yet, we are to never reject any part of God's word because that makes us a judge of God's Word...deciding in our human limitations which is right and which is wrong.

God has preserved all of His Word throughout the ages. We read it and study it with the aid of the Holy Spirit to help us discern and grow to a fuller understanding.

In that respect, we are all a work in progress...learning and growing.