Suicide

[Openly Curious]

Also, OC, please address the following two posts. I'd really like to see how you answer these: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=535331

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=535345

In the case of Samson the people of God (like us) were in bongage (slaves) to the Philistines because they fell into sin and got into bondage and that's what our sins do to us. It was Samson's own sins sleeping with Delilah that got his vow broken between him and God as His hair was cut off. You can read where he was taken into captivity by the Philistines and he was made to grind at the mill as the onlookers mocked him (sound like someone to you) they even plucked out his eyes. That is what sin will do to a person it will strip them of their spiritual strength and take your spiritual eyesight.

In the book of Judges God would raise up judges in order to deliver the people of God when they were overtaken and put in bondage to their enemies and when the people of God would cry out to God that is when God raised up a judge and they stayed in bondage until they got tired of it and wanted to be free again that is when they cried out just as they did in Exodus.

Sometimes it was as long as twenty years before they did.

The Philistines were the children of Israel's enemies and Samson while in that mill grinding with his eyes gone begins to talk and commune with God and gets things right as he humbles himself before the Lord and his hair begins to grow back and God sees that the Nazerite vow is being honored once again and granted him his prayer petitions.

In this case of Samson who I believe is a type of Christ (our deliver) his death was very admirable as he laid down his own life for his friends (the people of God) does that sound like someone to you.

This is why I did not respond quickly to you in this matter for I was heart broken to see the great men in whom God used in history to show us himself. Linked to the awfullness that is associated with suicide. And knowing this truth about the story of Samson relating to us the message of Christ who did not have to give his life for us but yet he did it willingly as Samson was picture and portrayal of that well it just did set right with me. So I did not address it yet but I have not avoided you.

His death was admirable it was not that of a suicidal person. And to portray it as such was in poor taste.

In reply to the other post Everyone has their own conscious before God and if your conscious is clean in your relationship with him when death come all will be well but if it is not then all will not be well. I refer you to post#178

God Bless

Openly Curious

Spoken like a true politician.

You still have not addressed the issue.

You argued that suicide is a sin that leads to condemnation (Do I need to go back and quote you?). Was Samson condemned or not?

[Openly Curious]

The more you speak OC, the more you cite the same protests and verses that are used to support conditional security doctrine. An the same methods too, removal of context and misinterpretation (I'll get to my use of the word "Guarantee" shortly - its in the NKJV)

Luke 7:47--12:42--48

Luke 7-12 tells nothing of what you ascribed to it. It simply and obviously teaches that Forgiveness is a display of love and such love is contageous. Forgive a man much and he too will show the same love. Forgive him little and he sees no love in you.

Luke 12:42-48 speaks of earthly consequences for our actions, being ostrisised from the church and cast out amongst believers. It does not speak of etrenal condemnation. I will show you even an instance in which such a practice was carried out...

1Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even *named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord *Jesus.

further more we read in 1Cor Ch3:

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You were right however in so much that Luke 12:48 clearly shows that the more responsibility we are given in Christ and the more closely we walk with him in faith, the more he will demanded of us.

"Conditionally Freed And Secured" (CFS).

Indeed. You see how the simplicity of the language makes it easier to comprehend. "conditional security" so that would mean that...your salvation is secure...just so long as.........

You see, salvation is secure or it is not, and in your doctrine it is not. Conditional salvation.

take a chill pill

I'm sincerely sure that you dont know this actually refers to taking drugs, probably not a wise choice of words in future.

Regarding 1John 3:19-24, it illustrates that the more righteous our living the more confidently we can claim that which God provides. Or put more simply, the more holy and righteous a believer is, the greater are the works that God will use him for. The preceeding verses actually COMFORT us that we can set our minds at rest when our hearts condemn us because of Jesus' sacrifice:

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we *know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

No matter what you say or I believe the parable teaches without doubt the validity to "Stay" in the vine and if one does not they will be cut off cast aside and whither away and die. No matter who you say it is referring to the truth remains "solid"

I agree, but what we disagree in is the nature of the branch. You say it is grafted in by salvation and can be cast out again and lose salvation. I say that it is grafted in by working Gods will, but only produces fruit and remains if it is fed by the ROOT, which is salvation.

Furthermore, to suggest that the branch that is cast off should be a believer in Christ who has salvation, contradicts directly Jesus own words in John 6:37 "I shall in NO WISE cast them out" - Jesus does not cast out the saved, but the unsaved, we might call them "associates of Christ" rather than the Bride. They are part of the congregation but are not saved.

Jesus is our high priest in heaven and is so ministering on our behalf making intercession for us as he reminds the Father of the great sacrifice in made on behalf of mankind.

So in effect, every time we sin, Jesus offers his sacrifice for us to God? Wouldnt that be crucifying himself for ourselves repeatedly and putting him to an open shame?

I'm sure you will argue that is not what you meant, and I'm quite sure you didnt mean it that way. But that being the case, Jesus must have made his sacrifice for ALL our sins, past present and future, in which case, it is done, the sins are covered and no confession on our behalf is required. Our repentance has been made at the cross, but we still repent daily because we know our sins are abhorrent to God and quite simply, we trully are sorry for them.

For the scriptures says in Ephesians 1:14 it is the "earnest of our inheritance" not the guarantee of it as you have misrepresented this verse to say.

My quote was directly from the NKJV and was not a misrepresentation. Your argument is with the greek scholars. However:

Strongs 728: "arrhabon"

1) an earnest

a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid

Such a downpayment was indeed taken as guarantee. The only way for the promisary of this guarantee or "earnest"

to break the contract would be for them not to pay the full amount. In this case the promisary is Jesus and he assures us continually throughout scripture that we belong to him, that the payment HAS been made (At the cross) that we shall NEVER perish, that he shall never cast us out. That he IS able to do his Fathers will etc....

Further more, a downpayment is a solemn pledge to pay in full and God does not break his pledges does he? In verse 13 we are told that we are sealed or "marked" with the Holy Spirit. The Mark of God is an indelible one, it cannot be erased. This passage tells us that we are both marked by God and covered by his earnest, what more assurance do you need? regardless of which interpretation of the greek you prefer to use, God gives us EVERY assurance in this passage that we are His. Bought and paid for, inheritance awaits.

But if we choose of our own free will to leave His side then that is the other side of the coin. One can leave his hand and go back out in sin.

And that sadly is a key signature of one who has not assurance in God. If he has no promise to keep, you have no reason to stay. Go ahead, walk away...why not, you cant be sure you wont get run over and condemned for swearing at the last second, trully whats the point? all that honest dedication for what? to Go to hell on something as instantaneous as a simple swear word, a knee-jerk reaction. Ya, if I had no confidence in God, I'd leave too.

If you read the Parable of the Lost sheep, the Lost Coin and the prodigal Son. You will see that they each went astray and returned, either by ther own will or by the ceaseless and fruitful efforts of their master. The crux of the parables being...they all began under their masters watchful eye....believers may stray, but they always return or are brought back to repentance.

My doctrine shows and tells that staying in "Christ" there is abundance apart from him we have nothing and that is grace is sufficient to meet all our needs according to his riches in glory.

Again, your doctrine teaches that we are ultimately responsible for the maintenance and security of our own salvation, which can be snatched away by a final breath after a life of sincere devotion and belief. This is hardly motivation for the suicidal.

Mine says you're secure in Christ and he offers you everything to live for, not least of which an honorable and righteous death in service to him.

Salvation is in fact a free gift from God as no one can do anything to earn it they have to simply by faith recieve.

That one decision changes us As nobody can go forward in they do not make a decision. And that one decision causes us to go forward in our walk with Christ.

No kidding, thanks for once again trying to make someone elses wisdom your own:

I stated:

the salvation of the believer which is granted through their belief in his complete and COMPLETED sacrifice

Citing Eph 2:8 as the source for this simple wisdom.

As I keep saying, God has EVERYTHING covered.

Write me off if you like, but by the same token you stated, neither does it mean that my rebuke is unwarranted. Your argument here is circular. (Quotation of NP)

Openly Curious

I think I see circles also

again? in the same breath? I made the point, accept it and move on, quit repeating others to sound intelligent.

*Quote* Openly Curious

Talk about me being evasive and not answering questions. I will ask it once again How does it save the person life here while they are still alive and in distress. I'm waiting I'm waiting I'm waiting *Quote*

You see what you did there? you evaded the point by calling me evasive...how Ironic. Address the issue..you assumed and misrepresented my opinions on suicide.

Although I have answered this question directly twice already, for your benefit I will do it again here and in greater detail.

Those who believ in Christ and are granted salvation though his sacrificial death are assured of that salvation. Therefore even death and yes even suicide cannot separate them from God. However, despite your strong compunction that such an offer of salvation would push them into suicide. If its actually explained and ministered properly, it will give the subject hope for life. The hope that Christ is able to uphold us in life if we simply allow him to take charge of us, that faithfulness will bring us peace, joy and reward and that living through trials makes us stronger more resiliant and an increasingly effective witness to others.

You seem to think our only options of ministry are "Dont do it, you'll go to hell" or "Go ahead and do it, you'll be fine on the other side" It shows how short sighted you are.

*Quote* I never condemned nebula not once that is a lie I shared the hope of Christ with Nebula.*Quote*

I didnt accuse you of condemning her. what an odd reaction. I did hold you to task on the following statement:

*Quote* So in your sympathy for these in this situation your encouragement would be just don't do it cause alot of people love you and don't want you to die because it will break our hearts to see you go. And God's heart would be broken also, and he knows your sufferings "But" he wants you to live, be healed, then share all your wisdom with us and spread God's love through your experience.

Almost sounds like a quick fix to me.

Nebula said that didn't work for Him. *quote*

Nebula in fact gave this reason for her endurance:

*Quote* I say this because that's how I found the strength to carry on - I didn't want to hurt God.

In the movie It's A Wonderful Life, Clarence used this method to reach George.

Love is powerful. If someone in a suicidal state can love someone else more than they hate themselves, that love will strengthen them. *Quote*

OC - This is the councilling I suggested, you quoted me yourself: And God's heart would be broken also

See? its just up there ^ in bold, twice. If youve seen "Its a wondrful Life" you'll know just what Nebula was talking about. The effect that we have on the life of others is a huge draw for our own life, knowing that we can and do make such a big impact on their lives and for the believer this includes God also, the one who offers the greatest unconditional love of all.

And what hope do you offer? If you kill yourself you'll go to hell...far better you should try to follow God and maybe you might get saved, but who knows you might go to hell anyway, all it takes is a single unconfessed sin

NewPigrim

Your opinion in all of your muddled mess here in the things you have said in your docrine suggests and gives those who would embrace this message that you can go ahead and commit suicide and God will be pleased with you.

God will one day say to them "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For this is your doctrine and I do not accept it.

Openly Curious

Edited March 24, 2006 by Openly Curious

[nebula]

A Christian man discovers his wife was unfaithful to him (active affair with another man). In anger, he drives away. Somewhere on the highway he gets involved in a car accident which he could have avoided had not his anger distracted him. The crash is severe enough that he dies. Does he go to Hell because he had unforgiveness in his heart towards his wife?

I address this at the bottom of post #181 and touch upon it in post # 178

That sounds like a, "Yes," to me.

*Quote* - Openly Curious - I never condemned nebula not once that is a lie I shared the hope of Christ with Nebula.*Quote*

I didnt accuse you of condemning her. what an odd reaction.

I'm the one that said that. If I was in my moment of struggling with suicide, that kind of "counsel" OC was giving would have left me feeling more condemned.

You see, part of my problem was I hated myself, and part of that was because I wasn't good enough. I tried to be righteous but kept failing and didn't know why. I heard all the "surrender to God" stuff, and beat myself silly to do so, but it didn't work.

To hear someone say that my struggle is evidence I haven't surrendered, wasn't trusting, whatever - just made me feel worse.

I did hold you to task on the following statement:

*Quote* So in your sympathy for these in this situation your encouragement would be just don't do it cause alot of people love you and don't want you to die because it will break our hearts to see you go. And God's heart would be broken also, and he knows your sufferings "But" he wants you to live, be healed, then share all your wisdom with us and spread God's love through your experience.

Almost sounds like a quick fix to me.

Nebula said that didn't work for [her]. *quote*

Nebula in fact gave this reason for her endurance:

*Quote* I say this because that's how I found the strength to carry on - I didn't want to hurt God.

In the movie It's A Wonderful Life, Clarence used this method to reach George.

Love is powerful. If someone in a suicidal state can love someone else more than they hate themselves, that love will strengthen them. *Quote*

OC - This is the councilling I suggested, you quoted me yourself: And God's heart would be broken also

See? its just up there ^ in bold, twice. If youve seen "Its a wondrful Life" you'll know just what Nebula was talking about. The effect that we have on the life of others is a huge draw for our own life, knowing that we can and do make such a big impact on their lives and for the believer this includes God also, the one who offers the greatest unconditional love of all.

And what hope do you offer? "If you kill yourself you'll go to hell...far better you should try to follow God and maybe you might get saved, but who knows you might go to hell anyway, all it takes is a single unconfessed sin" Thats not hope, thats gambling.

Exactly! Thank-you!

NewPigrim

Your opinion in all of your muddled mess here in the things you have said in your docrine suggests and gives those who would embrace this message that you can go ahead and commit suicide and God will be pleased with you.

God will one day say to them "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For this is your doctrine and I do not accept it.

Baloney!

Didn't I say that God did not give me a vision of going to Hell, but to Heaven - but that Jesus greated me with tears of disapointment, not "Well done"?

What I am telling the believer is this: "I don't believe if you give in to the temptation you will go to Hell, but I can guarentee you will regret it bad."

[Openly Curious]

A Christian man discovers his wife was unfaithful to him (active affair with another man). In anger, he drives away. Somewhere on the highway he gets involved in a car accident which he could have avoided had not his anger distracted him. The crash is severe enough that he dies. Does he go to Hell because he had unforgiveness in his heart towards his wife?

I address this at the bottom of post #181 and touch upon it in post # 178

That sounds like a, "Yes," to me.

*Quote* - Openly Curious - I never condemned nebula not once that is a lie I shared the hope of Christ with Nebula.*Quote*

I didnt accuse you of condemning her. what an odd reaction.

I'm the one that said that. If I was in my moment of struggling with suicide, that kind of "counsel" OC was giving would have left me feeling more condemned.

You see, part of my problem was I hated myself, and part of that was because I wasn't good enough. I tried to be righteous but kept failing and didn't know why. I heard all the "surrender to God" stuff, and beat myself silly to do so, but it didn't work.

To hear someone say that my struggle is evidence I haven't surrendered, wasn't trusting, whatever - just made me feel worse.

I did hold you to task on the following statement:

*Quote* So in your sympathy for these in this situation your encouragement would be just don't do it cause alot of people love you and don't want you to die because it will break our hearts to see you go. And God's heart would be broken also, and he knows your sufferings "But" he wants you to live, be healed, then share all your wisdom with us and spread God's love through your experience.

Almost sounds like a quick fix to me.

Nebula said that didn't work for [her]. *quote*

Nebula in fact gave this reason for her endurance:

*Quote* I say this because that's how I found the strength to carry on - I didn't want to hurt God.

In the movie It's A Wonderful Life, Clarence used this method to reach George.

Love is powerful. If someone in a suicidal state can love someone else more than they hate themselves, that love will strengthen them. *Quote*

OC - This is the councilling I suggested, you quoted me yourself: And God's heart would be broken also

See? its just up there ^ in bold, twice. If youve seen "Its a wondrful Life" you'll know just what Nebula was talking about. The effect that we have on the life of others is a huge draw for our own life, knowing that we can and do make such a big impact on their lives and for the believer this includes God also, the one who offers the greatest unconditional love of all.

And what hope do you offer? "If you kill yourself you'll go to hell...far better you should try to follow God and maybe you might get saved, but who knows you might go to hell anyway, all it takes is a single unconfessed sin" Thats not hope, thats gambling.

Exactly! Thank-you!

NewPigrim

Your opinion in all of your muddled mess here in the things you have said in your docrine suggests and gives those who would embrace this message that you can go ahead and commit suicide and God will be pleased with you.

God will one day say to them "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For this is your doctrine and I do not accept it.

Baloney!

Didn't I say that God did not give me a vision of going to Hell, but to Heaven - but that Jesus greated me with tears of disapointment, not "Well done"?

What I am telling the believer is this: "I don't believe if you give in to the temptation you will go to Hell, but I can guarentee you will regret it bad."

Ms Nebula,

I already know of what you have said. I am addressing NewPilgrim and the doctrine in which he is representing. And his doctrine is suggesting to me and to others who would embrace it--to go ahead and commit suicide God will be pleased with you.

God will one day say to them "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For that is the doctrine which NewPilgim has presented to me and if you agree with NewPilgrim then your doctrine as well suggests this very thing to me.

And I do not accept it

God Bless

Openly Curious

[Karen C.]

I don't know what Bible is being read here, but mine says King Saul was a demonized man. Sam 16:14. When the Spirit of the Lord quits drawing and working in someones life isn't that after the rejection of God and His Holy Spirit result in blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I know it opens a person up to all kinds of deception, even today. Finally resorting to seeking out the council of a witch no less. Same kind of seperation from God as Judas had, it was self imposed.

Classic case of worldly sorrow was the only remorse Saul and Judas exibited.

[juan77]

Someone mentioned that Jesus came to give life that we might have it in abundance or to the full.

Also the enemy comes to steel, kill and destroy.

God values life.

Satan doesn't. He wants to destroy life.

Correct?

So, if you commit suicide, you take life in your own hands and destroy it.

Even so, if you neglect your life (not watching your eating habits, no regular exercise, smoking exessive alcohol use, etc.), aren't you also commiting slow suicide?

God also said that His people are dying because of a lack of knowledge.

I'M NOT SAYING YOU'LL GO TO HELL IF YOU COMMIT SUICIDE. I'M NOT THE JUDGE. THAT'S GOD'S WORK!

God gave us all talents and He has a storeroom full of blessings for each and everyone of us.

When you go to heaven, don't you want to hear from God Himself that He is pleased with your way of living? Do you want to walk through your storeroom with Him showing you thousands of blessings that you could've had on earth?

Would you rather sit through the everyday pain and not commit suicide, or commit suicide risking that God might look down to you with an unpleased face?

Jesus went through all unimaginable pain and sorrow. His been there. The whole world's sin was dumped on Him at once! God the Father turned His back on Jesus when He was hanging on the Cross. Life need not be that bad to commit suicide.

For the believers who did commit suicide, I believe God is fair in all He does. Remember, nothing can seperate us from the love of God!

[nebula]

Ms Nebula,

LOL!

I already know of what you have said. I am addressing NewPilgrim and the doctrine in which he is representing. And his doctrine is suggesting to me and to others who would embrace it--to go ahead and commit suicide God will be pleased with you.

God will one day say to them "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For that is the doctrine which NewPilgim has presented to me and if you agree with NewPilgrim then your doctrine as well suggests this very thing to me.

And I do not accept it

No one is saying God will say, "Well done...."

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We cannot mix up that for which will get us into or kept from Heaven and that for which we will be granted or denied rewards.

[Openly Curious]

Ms Nebula,

LOL!

I already know of what you have said. I am addressing NewPilgrim and the doctrine in which he is representing. And his doctrine is suggesting to me and to others who would embrace it--to go ahead and commit suicide God will be pleased with you.

God will one day say to them "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For that is the doctrine which NewPilgim has presented to me and if you agree with NewPilgrim then your doctrine as well suggests this very thing to me.

And I do not accept it

No one is saying God will say, "Well done...."

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We cannot mix up that for which will get us into or kept from Heaven and that for which we will be granted or denied rewards.

I am saying the doctrine that has been presented to me thus far suggests to me --go ahead and commit suicide God will be pleased with you. God will embrace me seeing I am secure and say "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

For that is what your doctrine suggest to me. And again I do not accept it.

Matthew 25:30

Openly Curious

[Ovedya]

Samson layed down his life for the children of Israel in destroying their enemies as scriptures tell us he killed more in his death than when he was alive. Samson was the man God raised up to deliver his people. And destroying their enemies brought their freedom.

Hmmm....So then I guess suicide is not a sin if it saves a group of people or if it destroys your enemy? That sounds awfully Islamic to me.

Actually what you wrote is not true at all. In fact, if you had bothered to read the verses from Judges 16 you would have seen that Samson had, in fact, planned to take his own life and that of the Philistines who had captured him. He requested the his hands be placed upon the two supporting pillars of the house, and then prayed to God to give him strength to avenge his own shame at the hands of the Philistines. Isreal was neither delivered by Samson's act, nor were they freed from their enemies.

Now consider Hebrews 11:32-34 where Samson is mentioned among the great men of faith, where the writer says that he, among others, through faith, "overcame kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong in weakness, became mighty in war, routed the armies of foreigners."

And answer: Is Samson in hell because he committed suicide? Or does God provide a special place in heaven for those who intentionally kill themselves along with their enemies?

[Openly Curious]

Samson layed down his life for the children of Israel in destroying their enemies as scriptures tell us he killed more in his death than when he was alive. Samson was the man God raised up to deliver his people. And destroying their enemies brought their freedom.

Hmmm....So then I guess suicide is not a sin if it saves a group of people or if it destroys your enemy? That sounds awfully Islamic to me.

Actually what you wrote is not true at all. In fact, if you had bothered to read the verses from Judges 16 you would have seen that Samson had, in fact, planned to take his own life and that of the Philistines who had captured him. He requested the his hands be placed upon the two supporting pillars of the house, and then prayed to God to give him strength to avenge his own shame at the hands of the Philistines. Isreal was neither delivered by Samson's act, nor were they freed from their enemies.

Now consider Hebrews 11:32-34 where Samson is mentioned among the great men of faith, where the writer says that he, among others, through faith, "overcame kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong in weakness, became mighty in war, routed the armies of foreigners."

And answer: Is Samson in hell because he committed suicide? Or does God provide a special place in heaven for those who intentionally kill themselves along with their enemies?

Ovedya

As long as you promote the "secured" doctrine to me you are still suggesting to me--go ahead and and commit suicide and God will be pleased with me and one day will say to me "Well done thou good and faithful servant.

And I do not accept it

post#181 & 187

Openly Curious

Edited March 24, 2006 by Openly Curious