neo-pharisees

[eric]

There have been some good points about this subject from most everyone, but I don't think that anyone has entered the area of slander yet. I take Tess's point that they are christian brothers and come under the grace the same as all saved brethren, but we don't have to turn the pages back far to find where others, Jim Jones, for one who have the charisma to fool hundreds of sheep and led them up the wrong path.

There is at present enough information around, from well-known critics and apologetics. to issue a warning to be wary of these post modern, emergent teachings and to warn the new christians to be like the bereans and keep their bibles hany, because I understand that the congregants, of one particular church, are advised not to bring their bibles to church with them.

I'm with you Rober H. These guys must be exposed.

eric.

[Rober H]

There have been some good points about this subject from most everyone, but I don't think that anyone has entered the area of slander yet. I take Tess's point that they are christian brothers and come under the grace the same as all saved brethren, but we don't have to turn the pages back far to find where others, Jim Jones, for one who have the charisma to fool hundreds of sheep and led them up the wrong path.

There is at present enough information around, from well-known critics and apologetics. to issue a warning to be wary of these post modern, emergent teachings and to warn the new christians to be like the bereans and keep their bibles hany, because I understand that the congregants, of one particular church, are advised not to bring their bibles to church with them.

I'm with you Rober H. These guys must be exposed.

eric.

Thanks eric, I appreciate the support. Thank you too Jamie, Tess and the many others who are making this thread started by Dakota190 interesting and keeping it balanced.

[irishcowboy]

And, as my 91 year old lady friend put it..."honey you can pray for some of them till the cows come home, but a goat was never a sheep and will never be a sheep." :grin:

Amen!

A heretick is a heretick is a...

Titus 3:10-11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

i would have to disagree with you on the point that people can not be changed...

Prayer is how things and people are changed....

one man in peticular, from the time we met him until 1998, used nothing but swear words, cuss words when talking to me or my family. he knew that it irritated us, and knew what he was doing... in 1998, he falsly accused one of my sons for doing something, when my sons were not even in the area, and were under adult supervission the entire time... I cut him off from conversation with us and also banned him from the property with the promise that the police would be called in if he even set foot on the property.

after that, continuing to uplift him in prayer, i found that as i lifted him up, i was finding things about myself that needed attention, and the prayers started focusing towards myself... instead of asking God to change him so much, i was also asking God to make me more loving to him, to help me learn to love this man even more....

in 2003, this man came over and asked me a question, and asked for some assistance... and he did it with no curse words, with a kind voice, actually a voice of one that is scared.... since then, we have became neighbors, where we can carry on conversations for half hour to 45 min at a time with not a single cuss word slipping from his mouth...

prior to this, he would wave, with the "california howdy" and would say things that would ....well, most filthy ..... things about anyone and every one that knew me... now it is smiles and happy waves....

one day, i know this man will accept the Lord... the seeds have been planted, the seeds have been watered..... they have sprouted, and are growing... and soon, they will ripen and he will be harvested for the Lord....

that ol' goat with the icey heart, is warming up and softening, and transfiguring into a sheep....

do not discount prayer.... this man is still walking the earth in his fleshy body, there is still hope for him, i will not be the one to run him through..... i will continue to lift him up before the Lord.... I may not be the one to harvest this man, but God will put the right person in his path when the time is right.... I will continue to be a neighbor to him.... and if that means being more open, more transparent, more vulnerable, then so be it..... what ever it takes.... one soul is worth praying 24/7/52/infinity for....

Christ died for all, not just a few, or some or one, but all people, that includes the TV evangelist, and the nasty people that live next door, Christ Loves them too....... yes, even those that are divorced, that are drug adicts, those that are child molestors children and adults alike, red, yellow, black and white, Christ loves them all..... and the greatest thing is, Christ Loves me so much He gave His live so that I may live...

Christ died for all the people that were lost in the Tsunami, it was up to them to accept Him as their Lord and Savior... Christ died for Benny Hinn also ( never heard the man speak, dont know a thing about him, other then what people here say, and i do not trust that, cause that is third and forth party information, not first hand info....) why chase after a man, the Holy Spirit is right here with us to show us the way, all we have to do is ask, seek and knock.......

the Power of Prayer is the greatest thing we have to keep us on track wit hthe Lord...... use it....

as far as when the cows come home..... that aint until Christ calls us home... and then after that... so we best be praying until then.....

mike

[Rober H]

And, as my 91 year old lady friend put it..."honey you can pray for some of them till the cows come home, but a goat was never a sheep and will never be a sheep." :grin:

Amen!

A heretick is a heretick is a...Titus 3:10-11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

i would have to disagree with you on the point that people can not be changed...

Prayer is how things and people are changed....

one man in peticular, from the time we met him until 1998, used nothing but swear words, cuss words when talking to me or my family. he knew that it irritated us, and knew what he was doing... in 1998, he falsly accused one of my sons for doing something, when my sons were not even in the area, and were under adult supervission the entire time... I cut him off from conversation with us and also banned him from the property with the promise that the police would be called in if he even set foot on the property.

after that, continuing to uplift him in prayer, i found that as i lifted him up, i was finding things about myself that needed attention, and the prayers started focusing towards myself... instead of asking God to change him so much, i was also asking God to make me more loving to him, to help me learn to love this man even more....

in 2003, this man came over and asked me a question, and asked for some assistance... and he did it with no curse words, with a kind voice, actually a voice of one that is scared.... since then, we have became neighbors, where we can carry on conversations for half hour to 45 min at a time with not a single cuss word slipping from his mouth...

prior to this, he would wave, with the "california howdy" and would say things that would ....well, most filthy ..... things about anyone and every one that knew me... now it is smiles and happy waves....

one day, i know this man will accept the Lord... the seeds have been planted, the seeds have been watered..... they have sprouted, and are growing... and soon, they will ripen and he will be harvested for the Lord....

that ol' goat with the icey heart, is warming up and softening, and transfiguring into a sheep....

do not discount prayer.... this man is still walking the earth in his fleshy body, there is still hope for him, i will not be the one to run him through..... i will continue to lift him up before the Lord.... I may not be the one to harvest this man, but God will put the right person in his path when the time is right.... I will continue to be a neighbor to him.... and if that means being more open, more transparent, more vulnerable, then so be it..... what ever it takes.... one soul is worth praying 24/7/52/infinity for....

Christ died for all, not just a few, or some or one, but all people, that includes the TV evangelist, and the nasty people that live next door, Christ Loves them too....... yes, even those that are divorced, that are drug adicts, those that are child molestors children and adults alike, red, yellow, black and white, Christ loves them all..... and the greatest thing is, Christ Loves me so much He gave His live so that I may live...

Christ died for all the people that were lost in the Tsunami, it was up to them to accept Him as their Lord and Savior... Christ died for Benny Hinn also ( never heard the man speak, dont know a thing about him, other then what people here say, and i do not trust that, cause that is third and forth party information, not first hand info....) why chase after a man, the Holy Spirit is right here with us to show us the way, all we have to do is ask, seek and knock.......

the Power of Prayer is the greatest thing we have to keep us on track wit hthe Lord...... use it....

as far as when the cows come home..... that aint until Christ calls us home... and then after that... so we best be praying until then.....

mike

Hello Mike,

I agree with you we should pray for them. What Jamie was saying is that a goat is a goat and for a true goat nothing will change them.

It is not my place to say who will repent or not. I simply quoted the scriptures to make the point that there is a limit to how many times we should rebuke someone who refuses to take correction.

Titus 3:10-11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

One thing is certain God will not force a person to repent. He will call them to repentance but it is up to them to receive His correction. So we can pray for someone and it will not necessarily change their minds.

Example:

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Jude 1:3-4 & 11-12 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ....

....Jude 1:11-12 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

It is not my place to say who will be saved or not. I hope that the TBN leadership will repent and I can pray but if they are not willing there is no amount of prayer that will change their minds.

Another example the most profound. Jesus said this to the Jewish leadership.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40

Of course we should pray for others. Of course we should hope but there is no guarantee that they will repent due to our prayers.

[Rober H]

You said

"The power of prayer is the greatest thing we have to keep us on track wit[h] the Lord."

Is there Scripture which states this?

How about "Obedience to God?"

Hello JoeBiggley,

You are right. Obedience and not just lip service is what is important.

Anyone can pray but doing what God has told us to do is what God requires.

Saul made prayers and sacrifices instead of obeying God and it cost him dearly.

1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

[jamie]

I can agree that prayer is a great tool for false teachers. I pray that God will spare the sheep from being torn to pieces by them, and remove them from a position of influence.

[irishcowboy]

Prayer is so so so misunderstood....

prayer is not just lip service, prayer is being in the presence of the Lord, prayer is doing His Will, for we are told to be in prayer continuously.... a person being in the state of prayer will not be out of Gods Will, for they will be seeking Gods Will in all that they do and say.

we have to remember that this is spiritual warfare, not faught with guns, swords, spears, bombs.... the only way to fight spiritual warfare is on our knees..... we can not fight this with flesh and blood...

so being in constant prayer is being obedient to the Lord....

tearing down a bother, rather then correcting them is not....

mike

[Rober H]

I can agree that prayer is a great tool for false teachers. I pray that God will spare the sheep from being torn to pieces by them, and remove them from a position of influence.

The apostle Paul agrees with you.

In fact he spent three years weeping over the wolves that would come among the church at Ephesus and warning every one.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Your view is a correct one.

[jamie]

tearing down a bother, rather then correcting them is not....

mike

In all fairness, I don't see where anyone has been gossiped about at a natural level here. All this topic is about as far as I can see is exposing false teachers and what their character looks like from a biblical perspective.

If thats wrong then Jesus shouldn't have called those pharisees all those nasty names, and Paul shouldn't have called the wolves clouds witout rain ....reserved for deepest darkness, or so pointedly said they would go to hell. (among many other things)

Our problem is we really don't understand what a false teacher represents from a biblical perspective, and we are torn between treating them the way Gods word says and doing what our humanistic desires would have us do.

I see a lot of people who are double minded when it comes to wolves in sheeps clothing, they like to focus too much on the 'sheeps clothing' thinking that somehow gives them a righteous possibility.

A "ravonous wolf" should be taken serious and handled accordingly, as the word of God clearly warns over and over.

[Rober H]

Prayer is so so so misunderstood....

prayer is not just lip service, prayer is being in the presence of the Lord, prayer is doing His Will, for we are told to be in prayer continuously.... a person being in the state of prayer will not be out of Gods Will, for they will be seeking Gods Will in all that they do and say.

we have to remember that this is spiritual warfare, not faught with guns, swords, spears, bombs.... the only way to fight spiritual warfare is on our knees..... we can not fight this with flesh and blood...

so being in constant prayer is being obedient to the Lord....

tearing down a bother, rather then correcting them is not....

mike

Here is the difference between your perspective and Jamie's.

She is concerned for the victims of the wolves. You appear to be worried about the wolves.

And as far prayer is concerned we understand that genuine prayer is more than lip service and what is more you know it.

The point was that we have a mandate from God to use our "swords" to do His will.

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Liberal thinking is even in our justice system. The "bleeding hearts" are more interested in making excuses for the criminal and blaming the victim.

Pretending that exposing error and selfishness of the "wolves" that are preying on God's sheep is an act of violence doesn't make it so.

I am not buying that line of reasoning and the bible backs me up!

The wolves on TBN love money and con the sheep preaching damnable heresies to steal it from them.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

The world watches TBN and "the way of truth is spoken evil of". I know about 13 years ago I was one of them.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

A harsh rebuke can build a brother up if he takes the correction.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Harsh words but given to Peter for his own good.

Love is not the melba toast, sugar coated dung that the world promotes.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The wolves on TBN call those people that try and point out their false teachings neo-phairsees, hypocrites and heresey hunters.

They can dish out rebukes but they can't take them.