rapture

[abrandnewgirl]

There is no contradiction concerning my statement that the ones who give their life for their testimony are lukewarm. What I mean is that they were lukewarm when Christ returned at the time of the rapture, so they were left behind. They had enough knowledge from things they had heard to understand they were in the tribulation period, and they sought the Lord. They were not lukewarm anymore.

so if this is truth that you have discovered by reading and studying scripture, then by all means point me to these scripture. I need to see the ones that aren't lukewarm taken into the heavens and the lukewarm left behind at the rapture and then see them turn completely to Christ and in turn they are martyred. You stated that you have gotten all of this information through study of scripture..please direct me to these scripture.

blessings

All you have to do Jackie, is look at the scriptures I gave showing that those who were not ready were left behind when Jesus comes back. That is obviously those not ready to meet him. Then you come down to the question of who the martyrs are in Revelation. I don't have to show through scripture they are people left behind or converts, because we know that is the case because of the scriptures I already gave. There is no way you or anyone else can prove through scripture that these people are the church that is standing all along. You can claim that is your opinion, but that is all you can do. I never saw abrandnewgirl provide proof of her conclusions, yet you were willing to accept what she said because she agreed with your position there is no rapture.

While we are at it, how do you explain the idea that no man knows the day or hour of the Lord's return, when if there is no rapture, it has to be the second coming, and we know that will take place 7 years after the anti-Christ is revealed? In addition, how do you explain the conditions that exist at the time of the Lord's returning or life supposedly going on as normal, people eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage as was the case in Noe's day? The time of the second coming will be one of great wars, natural dissasters, dissease, pestilence, etc. That is nothing like the conditions Jesus mentions in Matthew.

I want to clear something up that is twisted from what I said please...

a quote from Butero [You can claim that is your opinion, but that is all you can do. I never saw abrandnewgirl provide proof of her conclusions, yet you were willing to accept what she said because she agreed with your position there is no rapture. ]

My Opinion of what the "rapture" is undefined I don't agree with the lukewarm idea that you have written about and find no evidence to support that from what I read. I shall say that I believe God will in the end God will judge us for our works as he says he will....no matter how big or small of a believer we are, even if one is a poor example...there will be a judgement day and each will be rewarded. Revelation 20:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

Something got lost what i said...and that is my idea of the rapture as you call it (cuz it is a new term from the 1830's) is the First Resurrection that you find in Revelation 20:5-6. THAT IS MY OPINION OF WHAT IS PERCIEVED OF AS A RAPTURE AS YOU CALL IT. Thank you for your response. Hope I am understood where I stand. One more thing...I see this rapture/ First Resurrection at the end...of time. God bless.... Edited October 24, 2006 by abrandnewgirl

[jackie d]

Okay, I have had it...the teachings that are pouring out onto the pages of this thread are heresy. Amd I am not speaking of the ones you have quoted Christopher John regarding the repentance of the nation of Israel or the sealing of the 144,000...just so you know. I am however meaning anything that you or anyone else has used in this thread to support a rapture theory.

Christ may be addressing the Jews at the moment He is speaking but all scripture applies to all man that believe in Him! That is why He said to go out and teach all nations the gospel. He didn't say to them only tell these things to the Jews, the Gentiles live under different law than you. No...ALL MAN, ALL NATIONS. In fact in the Gospel of Luke, he expressly uses the same teachings that Christ gave to them that Matthew, Mark and John used, the same events and all...he took them and used these same events to teach the Gentiles...and at no time does Luke say, but don't listen to this part because it pertains only to the Jewish nations.

There is only going to be one event of being caught up and that will be at the 2nd coming of Christ before His millennial reign...none other. Those who will live in the camp of the saints and the beloved city after His second coming are the saints who DO NOT sell themselves to Satan by taking his mark in order to save their lives, these that have the ability to endure to the end. Or were martyred because of their refusal to take the mark when the Anti-Christ makes his presence to the world known. Many will die for their refusal. The others in this camp of the saints and the beloved city are the 144,000 sealed Jews that God places under His protection during the days of the Anti-Christ.

More likely than not it will be the pre-trib rapture theory that the Anti-Christ uses to his advantage to show people who believe in the "rapture" that they were correct and they are now serving the messiah. When in fact the saints that are missing are those who lost their heads because they refused his mark. By this time those who have noted the disappearance of many of the saints will be in awe and disappointed that they didn't go during the first rapture, but hey who's to worry right...there is another yet to come!!! Pee-eww!

Sorry folks if I have come on a little strong but the one thing that is lacking in all of these false teachings is logic! And God is logic. He gives us logical minds in order to think things through and in order to recognize the difference between true discernment of leadings by the Holy Spirit and flat out lies to take the focus off of God and HIS TRUE word that have caused so many to pin their hopes on false teachings.

I don't get it! Are there so many "Christians" too weak kneed to stand the tests of tribulation that they would rather give in to this hyped up fairy tale than to learn how to stand and fight for Christ even at the risk of loosing our heads?

God bless all of you in your beliefs, I pray for each and everyone who is of a belief that there will be a pre-trib rapture. Or any other rapture for that matter unless it happens to be the time of being caught up in the air with Christ at His 2nd coming. And I pray for those who separate the word to mean different things for different nations...

And if I have offended and made you guys mad, I won't take it back..so I guess I will simply have to live with it. But I will tell you that I have said these things out of extreme compassion and love for you.

Blessings

Edited October 25, 2006 by jackie d

[jackie d]

Actually Jackie, I can deal with it either way. I hold to a belief in the rapture because I believe it is true. Since I believe I must be right with God to make it at the time the trumpet sounds, I also realize the seriousness of living in sin. I don't really think it is a heresy to believe in a rapture or no rapture. When it comes to areas of prophecy, it is hard to be absolutely certain of exactly what everything means. I understand your point of view and respect your opinion, but just disagree with it. You asked why the church won't accept your view, are they too weak to deal with the idea of going through the tribulation? One could just as easily ask people with your viewpoint, what is your problem? Are you living a lifestyle so lax that you are afraid of the trumpet sounding suddenly and not being ready? I don't believe that is the case with you, but it is the same kind of logic you just used.

I suppose you could look at it and use that type of logic Butero but as you said that would really not be the case with me.

No, it does matter what we believe..the theory of rapture has become such a controversial matter that it in itself causes division. We as Christians are to acknowledge the Truth and dispell lies. Where the heresy comes in is how people are taking scripture and using it to the advantage of this particular theory dragging new believers into it....

Okay let me ask you this. You take on a new Christian and mentor them. During this mentoring the conversation of heaven comes up and your pupil asks you about the end times. Do you point to the scriptures written about those times and answer him simply by reading to him what Christ has said and leave it at that? Or do you then go on to tell him about this rapture that you are sure is going to come, not because Christ clearly paints the picture of a rapture but because scripture may or may not allude to it? What happens to this young Christian? What happens to you if you are teaching wrong? I believe that we all pay the price for not teaching truth to the new Christian...so yes it matters greatly.

This is where I am having the most difficulty with this teaching..the disciples ask specific questions about how will we know when we are near the end. Christ gives specific answers but manages to leave out clear specific meaning of rapture or no? I don't think so. Christ spoke to the disciples one day regarding His death and resurrection. He stated "I am going to my Father and I am helping Him to prepare a mansion with many rooms for you. This is so because I say it is so, if it were not so I would tell you." Clear and plain explanation and description....He isn't the God of confusion, yet many are confused about this very subject. And I believe that they are confused about this subject because it is man made and not God made.

Now of course we come back to I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Am I any worse for wear if I believe that I will be here until my head is either taken or have the gumption to endure to the end and am caught up in the air with Him at His return? I don't think so. I am not teaching anything that isn't clearly spelled out in scripture. Are you any worse for wear should you maintain the belief that you will be rescued by Him prior to "tribulation" that falls on the world, should you be teaching this to others and it is in fact not true? Better yet are any worse for wear not being prepared to endure to the end because you spend your time just waiting for Him to catch you up in the air?

When we are prepared for the worse case scenario we are not caught off guard. Our chins are set to take it no matter what..just as Christ knew that the cup of tribulation He would endure would not be taken from Him. He knew He had to do it and did not look for an escape route, even when He asked the Father to remove the cup, He backed and said "your will be done, not mine" I truly feel that those who have invited the pre-trib rapture theory into bed with them are looking for an escape route because deep down they know what is coming is too much to bare. IMHO

God Bless John

[jackie d]

I understand what you are saying about being prepared, but that argument can go both ways as well. Here is how. If you believe there is no rapture, you will not feel the need to get really serious with God till you see a peace agreement brokered by the anti-Christ and Israel. If you believe there is a rapture, you must be prepared for the trumpet at any time.

On the other hand, if you don't believe in the rapture, and you end up having to go through the tribulation, you are mentally prepared. If you believe in the rapture, and have to go through the tribulation, you are not mentally prepared. There are negatives and positives on both sides. That being the case, why not take this position?

We should all be ready for Christ's return, as it will come like a thief in the night for those unprepared. There is disagreement over whether or not Christians will have to go through the great tribulation period, but it is possible that if you are living right when Jesus returns, you may not have to. At the same time, you should be prepared for the worst case scenerio, going through the tribulation. By doing this, we are acknowledging that there is some uncertainty over which position is right, but we all agree Christ will one day return. I think this is the safest position to take.

I acknowledge what you have just said John...I would like to know what you feel about possibly teaching others wrongly. Does this concern you? Being prepared should be a given. Christ is coming, we are to keep our lamps oiled and lit. Those who don't well they wouldn't make it rapture or not anyhow so what does that matter?

What I want to know from you is how do you feel about the possibility that you are leading others in a false teaching?

John said "One thing I want to add. Nobody really knows if they will be strong enought to stand during the tribulation till they get there. Even if you think you are able to make it now, you may fall when the true testing time occurs. That could be the case with me as well. The Bible warns us to be careful because when we think we stand, we should take heed lest we fall."

Never in any of my comments did I say that I stand. What I did say is that I am prepared to endure. That is all I said. Never have you seen me say that I pass that test because I have not been tested yet. I will say however that I have faith that the Lord will keep in my heart and in my mind that the only place I belong is with Him, serving Him and fighting for Him.

Edited October 25, 2006 by jackie d

[jackie d]

We should strive to be in the truth on every single issue, but I know nobody but Christ himself was in that position.

Agreed, however...we cannot forget that when Christ told the disciples that He must leave them to die, then return for a time and then go where they cannot go, He also told them that one would come in His stead. Holy Spirit would come and dwell within them and that Holy Spirit would be as in John 14:26 (New King James Version) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

So, to say that we can't be given the truth on every matter if we truly seek Truth is not true. As Christ said the Holy Spirit will teach you ALL things.

Let me ask you this John, I have had a vision of my own beheading. Does this mean that I am not right with the Lord right now and will be left behind?

Blessings

Edited October 25, 2006 by jackie d

[jackie d]

Mark 13:18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect

Edited October 25, 2006 by jackie d

[jackie d]

Mark 13:18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect

[KOG-Ambassador]

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. - Matthew 24:14

[damo1]

damo1

can you honestly say you wil be hear for the rapture ? and can you hoestly say when this wil happen only the father knows of this and i am not going to worry my self

[Mutzrein]

Rapture? Is this supposed to be when Jesus returns?