Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[ayin jade]

My apologies for misunderstanding you.

[khalou]

My apologies for misunderstanding you.

Any my apologies.

I'm a guest here and, when there is a misunderstanding, it is probably my fault.

k

[apothanein kerdos]

About the claims of witnesses...

I learned at a young age that if I were going to lie I would need to make sure the story couldn't be confirmed. The point being, I wouldn't claim multiple witnesses unless they could validate my story. It makes no sense for the Gospel writers to claim all these witnesses if they could not in fact be produced.

[billie]

Thanks. I was beginning to think that I'd lost my mind.

I guess you guys have run into some pretty agressive atheists.

Yes, K, unfortunately, most people who come here claiming they're atheists only want to argue.

If that's not you, I'm glad.

[secondeve]

I simply feel that the atheist mind drives them to search

out others that have similar thoughts. The more people

they get to agree with them the more they feel they must

be right. And if they can cause a Christian to stumble then

the atheist feels triumphant.

I simply feel that the Christian mind drives them to search out others that have similar thoughts. The more people

they get to agree with them the more they feel they must be right. And if they can cause an athiest to stumble then

the Christian feels triumphant. Like someone has stated this has been going on and will continue to go on till the end time.

I just thought I'd say this, because quite demonstrably, your opinion works both ways. This is a Christian website; I'd say that's a fairly solid embodiment of seeking others who agree with you already as a confirmation of belief.

There are certainly types and shadows of Christ in paganism just as there are in the Old Testament. Consider that Jesus evidently rose from the dead on the VERY DAY of the heathen 'Feast of Ishtar.' This was a Spring festival, celebrating the new growth and fertility of the Spring. is it not singularly appropriate that the Son of God should resurrect in 'newness of life' right at that time?

Leonard, if the old religions are false, why would it be significant or necessary for Christ to tie himself in with their lies? Also, what about Easter and Eostre/Ostara?

what freedom an atheist might

be giving them by turning them away from God!

If by chance atheists are right (which surely they are not)

then when you die that is it done you are dead and nothin

comes after. (sad thought)

So now someone believes them okay what freedom does

that someone get?

Sexual freedom, if that person is gay: to love who they want without judgement. The freedom to believe that they, and not God, are in control of their own destiny. The freedom to divorce if they are in a bad or dangerous marriage without spiritual repercussions. The freedom to have sex outside of marriage, for reasons other than procreation, without being made to feel guilty or unclean. The freedom to watch TV shows or films, or to read books, which feature fantastic elements or non-Christian (which isn't the same as anti-Christian) sentiments or ideas (note: while this isn't an explicit Biblical prohibition, lots of Christians seem to feel nervous about it anyway). The freedom to trust scientists and, arguably, what they have observed about the world (again, a similar disclaimer as before). The freedom to take credit for one's own successes, rather than passing them on to a deity, and to take responsibility for one's failings, rather than blaming them on a devil. The freedom to believe in luck and coincidence. The freedom to treasure life more acutely, because it is the only one we get. The freedom to do what one wants on a Sunday. The freedom to marry who one wants, regardless of their religion, without spiritual qualms.

Personally? I think those things are important. Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity brings out the best in some people, and that some need it more than they need athiesm. But I do believe that there are things to be gained from athiesm, too.

Edited October 9, 2006 by secondeve

[Leonard]

Kalou: It's pretty clear you've never read Josh MacDowell's "EVIDENCE......" for yourself. I strongly suggest you do so. It IS very difficult reading, because it's written in outline form largely. But to simply dismiss it because some website says so, is a disservice to your own intellectual persuits.

[khalou]

Thanks. I was beginning to think that I'd lost my mind.

I guess you guys have run into some pretty agressive atheists.

Yes, K, unfortunately, most people who come here claiming they're atheists only want to argue.

If that's not you, I'm glad.

Well, I won't say I'm not into arguing.

But only respectfully with regard to others' beliefs.

k

[Spunky]

Sexual freedom, if that person is gay: to love who they want without judgement. The freedom to believe that they, and not God, are in control of their own destiny. The freedom to divorce if they are in a bad or dangerous marriage without spiritual repercussions. The freedom to have sex outside of marriage, for reasons other than procreation, without being made to feel guilty or unclean. The freedom to watch TV shows or films, or to read books, which feature fantastic elements or non-Christian (which isn't the same as anti-Christian) sentiments or ideas (note: while this isn't an explicit Biblical prohibition, lots of Christians seem to feel nervous about it anyway). The freedom to trust scientists and, arguably, what they have observed about the world (again, a similar disclaimer as before). The freedom to take credit for one's own successes, rather than passing them on to a deity, and to take responsibility for one's failings, rather than blaming them on a devil. The freedom to believe in luck and coincidence. The freedom to treasure life more acutely, because it is the only one we get. The freedom to do what one wants on a Sunday. The freedom to marry who one wants, regardless of their religion, without spiritual qualms.

Personally? I think those things are important. Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity brings out the best in some people, and that some need it more than they need athiesm. But I do believe that there are things to be gained from athiesm, too.

I thank you for your point of view Secondeve,

yet I am alittle confused athiests already believe they are in control of their own

destiny, they freely divorse without concerns for spirtitual repercussion.

Everything you listed aside from gay marriage (minus a few states) they

can do and have been doing freely. All those things are what atheism is

offering to a Christian if they turn away from God?

Atheism is not giving these freedoms, those freedoms are already given to all!

I believe God gave us all the freedom to choose, and I don't begrudge anyone

that right but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the choices some make.

Yes it is a Christians belief in God that guides us in many of the choices we

make, and we are happy to have His guidence!

Why does atheism persist to begrudge us the right to disagree with them?

They can't just say fine you believe in God and I don't that is your right,

nope they can't do that instead they make movies and write books trying

to disprove God.

God BLess!

[artsylady]

Spunky wrote:

I really don't feel it's money promotion that is at the root!

I simply feel that the atheist mind drives them to search

out others that have similar thoughts. The more people

they get to agree with them the more they feel they must

be right. And if they can cause a Christian to stumble then

the atheist feels triumphant.

Like someone has stated this has been going on and will

continue to go on till the end time.

Why would a atheist care one way or another if God exists

hmm simple if they are wrong then they are going to hell

and misery loves company!

Is God forcing the atheist to come to Him, no ofcourse not!

Are Christians forcing atheist to turn to God , ofcourse not!

So let them write their books all they want and make their

movies in the end God will have final judgment on them!

God Bless!

When I was a Christian, I would have chastised you in love.

What I would have said might have been something like this-

It is not up to you who will go to heaven. We are directed to love our enemy, because even the heathens can hate their enemies. How is that transcendental to human wisdom? Judgment is the Lord's, not yours. If you are without sin, then cast the first stone.

You mean you were actually a Christian at one time and during your time as a Christian you would have admonished someone like Spunky for writing what he/she wrote?

What exactly would bother you so much about the statements 'as a Christian?'

Before you 'chastise someone in love' do you first have to judge that their actions are wrong?

How long were you a Christian and were you always hypercritical of other Christians when you were a Christian?

If we are directed to show God's love, which is for all, and judgment is not our place, then you are being prideful in your assessment and are slamming the door shut on some human beings simply because you have decided that they, in their curiosity, are not living up to your standards.

Wow you really would have let Spunky have it. I'm still trying to figure out which statements made by Spunky were hateful. When you were a Christian, did you feel morally superior to other Christians?

Even when you were a Christian, was it wrong for other Christians to have philisophical views on why athiests think or do some things?

Since I am not a Christian any longer, then I will ask you to try to show love in order to convince me that the purpose of this board isn't just about some stupid intellectual argument that you seek to win, but all about me and my salvation, because, so far, you are falling well short of your directive.

There wasn't anything unloving about that post imo. It also was not directed at any one individual.

Were I still a Christian, I would be suggesting that you realize that you are telling the world that Christians are hateful. Since I'm an atheist, I'm telling you that, if you are indeed a Christian, what makes you different from any other person who dislikes anyone who disagrees?

This is not hateful stuff that Spunky wrote at all. I don't know if he/she apologized but I don't see a need. We can say what we feel here. There are no rules about wondering about the motivations of athiests or saying God will be their judge in the end.

[khalou]

Kalou: It's pretty clear you've never read Josh MacDowell's "EVIDENCE......" for yourself. I strongly suggest you do so. It IS very difficult reading, because it's written in outline form largely. But to simply dismiss it because some website says so, is a disservice to your own intellectual persuits.

I remember Josh from my Christian days as being a very good public speaker on the subject of sex to young people.

If I see the book at a store, I will buy it, but I have so many books to read right now, it will probably be awhile before I can crack it open. But that wasn't the only website that criticizes the scholarship of that book.

Remember, my qualification of a good conclusion consists more on what could prove it wrong than a list of reasons to believe it.

k