mortal or immortal soul ?

[Pilgrim7]

Hang in there Beta:

Here are the words of our Saviour. He says to shout them from the housetops:

Mt 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here we see that the natural man, is earthly and not Spiritual:

1co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Here we see that the soul and spirit are different and can be separated:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Here we see that converting a sinner, saves his SOUL from death:

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

5:20 Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Now a question:

Jesus suffered the penalty for our sin, correct. I am sure all here would agree with that. Now lets see, what does Scripture say that He suffered? It says that He DIED for our sins. Now this agrees with Scripture that says the wages of sin is death. Now if ,as many say, the penalty is everlasting torture in hell, then Jesus would have to still be suffering eternal torture for our sins, or He really didn't pay the price and we still have to pay it. HAS JESUS PAID YOUR ETERNAL TORTURE? FOR IF HE HAS, THEN IT CAN'T BE PAID YET, FOR ETERNITY GOES ON FOREVER AND HE WOULD STILL HAVE TO BE SUFFERING. Maybe it time to stop listening to man and start listening to God.

God bless,

Dennis

[Beta]

False beliefs do away with many scriptures relevant to salvation and burning eternally in hell-fire is one of them. It is sinful and wicked to believe such a thing of a merciful loving God who never had any such intention. People have assumed it because the wicked will share eternal hell-fire with evil spirits who can not die - but man being physical / material can and will die,if he has not repented when he had the chance. How could they become ashes under the feet of the Saints if they burned eternally ? Mal.4.

Hi Beta,

I just want to take it a step back to your OP and try and get a better direction on what your original intentions were. Your main focus (bolded in the above quote) was that belief in Salvation and burning in eternal hell fire is wrong. When we look at Revelation 20:4

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

As we can see by verse 4 John saw souls in Judgment seats, clearly defining that there is an after life of the soul.

In Rev. 20:10 we have the Devil, Beast and false Prophet being casted into the lake of fire being tormented for ever and ever.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then in Rev. 20:15 we have all those whose name was not found in the book of life, cast into the same lake of fire to which verse 10 says they are tormented day and night for ever and ever, eternal torment.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here are some other verses that speak of the salvation of the soul.

• 1Peter 1:9
  for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
  1Peter 2:25
  For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
  Rev. 6:9
  When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
  
  Jeremiah 6:16
  This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'
  

I'm still not sure of your intentions, I do however think that you are crossing Physical life with Spiritual life and are not being quite clear on what you are trying to say.

Peace

CJ

First of all thank you very much Pilgrim7, we are both reading scriptures relating to this subject plain and simple.

CJ, If you could stick to the topic of this debate it would avoid much confusion. How is it that Pilgrim and I don't have a problem ? My original intent was simply to provide scripts that state the soul can and does die. What happens after that branches out into many different topics all of which some people are trying to discuss here at the same time. This can only lead to confusion as more and more scriptures are brought into it. I will attempt again to start this from scratch. Do following scripts say the soul of the wicked shall die ? Ez.18 v 4, 20. Did Jesus say the soul can be destroyed in hell ? Mat.10 v 28, the wicked shall become ashes under the feet of the Saints ? Mal.4 v 3. There are other scripts saying man is mortal. In view of this how can people insist the soul does not die but lives on for ever ?

The only time a soul will live eternally is if we are made immortal by the Holy Spirit of God. The wicked do not receive God's Holy Spirit and are therefore not immortal and will be burnt up in Gehenna-fire in a second death.

I'm sorry if this is not clear to you but launching into looooooong posts does not help. Pr.10 v 19.

[Beta]

Christian, there is no scripture to say the soul goes to be with the Lord when we die.

Only the spirit returns to God Eccl.12 v 7

Christian

Beta believes that the body and soul are one and the same instead of two parts. far as I can tell from what he has posted he believes man is only body and spirit. A two part being instead of a three part being body, soul, and spirit.

Also that the body/soul will be eternally vanquished without a trace for all eternity with no eternal torment and we the saints are going to walk on their ashes that is what Beta believes "but" the spirit goes to God though.

OC

OC, can I at least relieve you of one false concept ? I am a SHE - not a he.

Christian, you asked for scriptures yesterday regarding soul and spirit going to be with the Lord when we die.

Acts 2 v 31 . . . spoke of the resurrection of Christ that his soul was not left in hell (hades, sheol) nor his flesh did see corruption.

Lk.23 v 46, Father into your hands I commend my spirit.(his human spirit)

[Openly Curious]

Christian, there is no scripture to say the soul goes to be with the Lord when we die.

Only the spirit returns to God Eccl.12 v 7

Christian

Beta believes that the body and soul are one and the same instead of two parts. far as I can tell from what she has posted she believes man is only body and spirit. A two part being instead of a three part being body, soul, and spirit.

Also that the body/soul will be eternally vanquished without a trace for all eternity with no eternal torment and we the saints are going to walk on their ashes that is what Beta believes "but" the spirit goes to God though.

OC

OC, can I at least relieve you of one false concept ? I am a SHE - not a he.

Please forgive me in this regards Beta and thank you for clearing that up for me much appreciated.

OC

[darski]

Maybe it's time to ask the question, "Why do you need this to be true?"

it is not about scripture because all of those have been refuted taken within the full context of scripture. You are now trying to preserve a personal agenda around this and I wonder what would be achieved by this. have you given that aspect any thought and can you articulate this for us?

[Openly Curious]

The only time a soul will live eternally is if we are made immortal by the Holy Spirit of God. The wicked do not receive God's Holy Spirit and are therefore not immortal and will be burnt up in Gehenna-fire in a second death.

When I recieved Christ Jesus into my heart and life. It was at that very moment I recieved the gift of eternal life it is mine right now in this life and in the next. I already passed from death to life and have been "sealed"

Jesus said he was the way the truth and the Life. I might have to wait on the redemption of my body to wit (Romans 8:23) by way of rapture or by way of grave. But I already passed from death unto life when I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

I am no longer dead in tresspasses and sins but I've been made alive in Christ.

Jesus was that bread that came down from heaven and if any man eat that bread he shall live forever.

The wicked are still abiding in death in their sins without hope in this world and in the world to come.

OC

[Guest RogerW]

Hello, Beta, et al,

In Luke 16:19ff, Jesus tells of a rich man and a beggar, both called "certain." I won't argue the merits of interpreting if "certain" indicates a real person or simply a character in a parable. What we read, though, makes several points that I find difficult to imagine Jesus would include if they incrorrectly illustrated our existence after death.

Abraham is still existing. Still able to conduct conversation, but not able to help the man in torment, who is also concious of his condition. The rich man remembers his brothers and still cares about their future. Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham. Whatever that means, it's sure a lot better than the state of the man who was previously rich. It also seems that their earthly behavior was instrumental in their different conditions.

How do you read this account?

Thanks, RogerW

Far more scriptures refer with certainty to ' mortal man ' than the few ambiguous ones people count on to believe in the immortal soul.

In the very beginning God said : for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return Gen.3 v 19. This was said AFTER God had created Adam a ' living ' soul Gen.2 v 7 motivated / activated by a breath of air / wind. Therefore when we stop breathing we are de-activated and die, become lifeless.

Scripture says man was made a ' living soul ' through wind-power blown into us by God. Take that away and we are a ' dead soul ' an inactive Being. God only has immortality now 1Tim.6 v 16 .

Scripture says the soul (body) can die or be destroyed and return to dust, Job 34 v 15, Ez.18 v 4, 20. Mat.10 v 28. Gen.3 v 19. Mal.4 v 3. Obed.v 16. Job 33 describes a soul as a human being suffering human conditions.

What we find next is ' a spirit in man '. This spirit gives man awareness and comprehension, the ability to understand, Job 32 v 8. it is FORMED in man by God for that purpose - not to make us immortal. Zech.12 v 1. This human spirit is primarily to give man comprehension. By this spirit we can begin to understand God, to realize we need to be given HIS HOLY SPIRIT and until we get it we have not eternal life in us. Obedience to God is a requirement in order to get it Acts 5 v 32.

False beliefs do away with many scriptures relevant to salvation and burning eternally in hell-fire is one of them. It is sinful and wicked to believe such a thing of a merciful loving God who never had any such intention. People have assumed it because the wicked will share eternal hell-fire with evil spirits who can not die - but man being physical / material can and will die,if he has not repented when he had the chance. How could they become ashes under the feet of the Saints if they burned eternally ? Mal.4.

[Christian]

This was my understanding of Abrahams Bosom

Abraham's Bosom

The American Heritage Dictionary defines bosom as "The heart or center". I believe that faithful people, prior to Christ's resurrection, were carried off to Abraham's Bosom. Abraham's Bosom was at the center of the earth across from hell and separated from it by "a great gulf fixed"(Luke 16:26). The old testament saints, sins COVERED by the blood of the animal sacrifices, were waiting in Abraham's Bosom (Paradise). This can be seen when the witch at Endor brings up Samuel(1 Samuel 28:15). Matthew 12:40 states that Christ must be three days and three nights in the HEART of the EARTH. Ephesians 4:8-10 also demonstrates that he descended to the "lower parts of the earth". As Christ said to the thief on the cross "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."(Luke 23:43) The thief would die and go to Abraham's Bosom, since Christ had not yet applied His Blood to the Mercy Seat to WASH away our sins. Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. This is evident in Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.

Luke 16

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 Samuel 28

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Matthew 12

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Ephesians 4

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Luke 23

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Acts 2

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Matthew 27

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

2 Corinthians 12

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for man to utter.

(*written by Scott Roffers)

[cjrose]

Great post, well written and so true! Although the Spirit calls our soul it doesn't dwell within us until we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. I was born again back in '83 and for the first couple of years I "thought" I was obedient. I did have the faith of God's assurances and His promise of salvation. I knew I was saved and preached to everyone I knew and didn't know of how God had changed my life.

During my awakening that very moment I came out of the darkness and stepped into the light I was re-born of the Holy Spirit which God must have known I needed a supernatual experience to believe and that is exactly what He gifted me with. What happened to me is an experience I remember to this day and cannot be explained with mere words except to say it was a divine intervention as I literally felt Him from head to toe with a warmth and light as I said indescribable. I know not everyone has this type of experuence but God knows me and knows what I need.

I was so filled with the Holy Spirit but I must say this. During the next 20 years, I backlided and He gently pulled me back and I would start with bible study, attempt fellowship with other women. And again, I separated myself because I did not anchor myself from the beginning even though there were many great experiences I in some inspiring retreats with so much love. But it would seem that I kept sticking my feet on the earthly worldly ground feeling as if I were still missing something.

To make this short, I have finally matured!!!! Though there is so much to do and learn, I have finally came to the point in my life where my receptors are open to hear Gods message from the Holy Spirit. I have never felt the Spirit so strongly over the last 6 months than I have in 20 years and it is because I have finally learned to place God first in my life and obedience is a becomes priority and as a result, the knowledge and understanding through the Spirit has awakened my soul as if I have had a re-birth! I am gifted by the God's Holy Spirit that I feel constantly and He is teaching me and speaking to me in so many ways.

The soul is dead until God breathes life by His Spirit dwelling inside of us. This world will pass away but my immortal soul which is alive with the Spirit will have eternal life in the salvation God has promised!! I pray everyone comes to a deeper awareness that allows them to feel the Spirit, the knowledge that the gift of Faith is always there whether we feel it or not and to have complete trust in our Father!

God Bless!

Cj

[Beta]

As I read Abrahams bosom is to be in a closely embraced relationship with him and through this become an heir of the promises God made to him, thus becoming Abrahams spiritual seed. Abraham has not yet collected on those promises but will do so with us in a resurrection. Jh.3 v 13 Script says no one has yet ascended up to heaven except he who came down, Jesus. Heb.11 mentions Abraham v 8 and says in v 13 these all died in faith not having received the promises but embraced them from afar. . .v 40 for God having provided some better thing for us that they without us should not be made perfect Heb.11 v 35. So the blessed in Abraham and righteous in Christ shall all inherit the promises together which are Land or this Earth AND eternal Life AFTER the resurrection of the Just.