mortal or immortal soul ?

[WillingToDie]

Beta,

Are you advocating a form of Conditional Immortality, in which a soul is given Immortality only as a reward (for lack of a better term)?

[Joshua-777]

So, you believe that the eternal spirit of man cannot die? That an unsaved man cannot survive hell? Well the body cannot, but the spirit will be in eternal torment in Hell.

Psalm 9:17

The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.

Psalm 55:15

Let death seize them;Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Ezekiel 32:21

The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

How does one speak in hell except there is a consciousness? We certainly do have an eternal component, and that is why Jesus Christ came to save us! He wants us to live forever with Him, not be tormented forever apart from Him! There is so much more in store for us after this life! We live maybe 70-80 years, but God has eternity planned for us!

I agree

[Beta]

How about the truth ?

Where is immortal soul mentioned in the Bible ?

I have listed several scriptures that man is mortal and the soul can and does die. Jesus himself said so Mat.10 v 28. Since it is an important issue relevant to our salvation how come people are so disinterested and blindly continue to believe a lie ?

It is not relevant to our salvation, not at all.

The only thing relevant to our salvation is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the acknowledgement that He IS God and having faith only in Him.

Do you acknowledge that Christ is God Beta?

Yes I do !

But didn't the DEMONS ALSO recognize Jesus for who he was ?

I believe there is a little more to our salvation than just that - else we would be no better than they ???

Thanks beta, and I do agree about having more than just an intellectual understanding. I was asking about Christ being God because some other groups which claim the soul dies also reject the Trinity, mainly the JW's.

I still don't think however that if someone is wrong one way or the other about if the soul dies and then is resurrected or if the soul goes directly to Christ, that belief would somehow be relevant to their salvation. It frankly seems like a minor point. To me either way I am cool, as long as I am with Christ either sooner or later.

But why did Christ tell the thief, " today you will be with Me in paradise "?

Hi there, either way would be an easy way out for us but it's not what God makes provisions for imho.

Jh.4 23/24 says he is looking for people to worship him in Truth and in my mind that means one way only, not whatever. The Truth is there to be found and we are to look for it even if it takes a lifetime. The question of an immortal or mortal soul poses a truth and a lie which is important to God and must therefore be to us. Nothing that makes a lie can get into the KGD of God Rev.22 v 15.

Your last question has been a tricky one for many and here is how I see it. One day can be as a thousand years with God or thousand years as one day 2Pt.3 v 8. God is not bound by time the way we are so that day Jesus ref. to could be any time, but we can be sure God knows when. Also I think we might consider that Paradise may not be the actual KGD of God but refers to the Garden where Adam and Eve were to begin their lives leading to the KGD. upon choosing the right tree.(but this is another topic)

[Beta]

No I am not a JW nor do I BELONG to any denomination .

I am a simple JUDEO CHRISTIAN trying to believe and obey the Word of God from the Bible.

Just asking,

I'm no expert on this subject and to be perfectly frank I was going to join in and decided to ask the Pastor yetsereday first what he thought of it and even he admits that it is a grey area. Some believe that the soul and the spirit are seperate, some believe that the soul and spirit are one and the same. The spirit in this reference is not the Holy Spirit that resides within us once we accept Christ. Each and every individual has a different character and personality, this character and personality can be altered throughout ones lifetime. The differing point that I see or feel, the spirit is that which makes up who I am as a person, the thing that seperates each and everyone of us which defines our soul.

They gave an interesting example at Church yesterday how certain creatures on earth, sea turtles for example. They travel thousands of miles around the ocean, from the Gulf of Mexico to the coast of England but somehow seem to be able to find there way back home because they have a built in navigation system similar to that of G.P.S., our soul can be best defined as the living part of us that makes us seek out, travel around, wander through life looking for God (consciously and subconsciously) from birth and our spirit is the navigation system and Jesus Christ is the homing signal.

Personally I don't really have a position on this topic because I haven't really contemplated this before, I do know that it is an issue that the JW's use as an argument to try and sway Christians into the Watch Tower Society.

The scripture that comes to mind though, now that you have me thinking about it is 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (King James Version) More specifically verses 52 to 55:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Food for thought I guess....

Peace

CJ

Good post CJ . The state of our soul can be a ' gray ' area to some especially when they don't want to upset anyone. But God says : how long do you hold between two opinions ? come down on one side or the other. To become a true follower of Christ WILL attract opposition and persecution - we are told and warned.

I have tried to set out my understanding of our mortality/immortality according to scripture but others will come to their own conclusions. From script. I see that man was made physical and mortal for a good reason as befits a merciful and loving God who would not want to see us in eternal torment.

You seem to have a good grasp of the role of the human spirit and I would just like to add that it absorbs all our characteristics and personality taking it back to God (Eccl.12v7) by which he will bring us back to life ie, a spiritual DNA. As you say our spirit is not the HSP, it simply gives us comprehension and records our Persona.

[Beta]

Beta,

Are you advocating a form of Conditional Immortality, in which a soul is given Immortality only as a reward (for lack of a better term)?

Hello WTD, I'll tell you what I read in the word of God and you make up your own mind, how's that ?

Acts 2 v 37 when people heard what had happened (to Jesus) they were cut to the heart and said what shall we do ? and Peter answered v38 Repent and be baptized (adults fully immersed) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT. ( does not say we are rewarded but given a free gift) Further we read in Acts 5 v 32 . . so is also the Holy Ghost (Spirit) whom God has given to them that obey him.

Reward is mentioned in the Bible but not in connection with immortality.

[Beta]

OC, I can see we have a long way to go to reach any kind of agreement but I don't mind if you are willing. But what I won't do is play games or try to score points. My object was to prove the mortality of the soul to which you have just raised another scripture in Rev.16 v 3 . . . and every living soul died in the sea - quite apart from knowing the meaning of it which is another matter. But if you feel the need to explain please do .

[Arthur Durnan]

Beta's take on immortality & the existence of a real biblical lake of fire reads like something out of Charles Taze Russell's (or Ellen Gould Harmon White's for that matter) "play-book." We are mortal & Paul says we shall "put on immortality" when we see Jesus. In the meantime, the Holy Scriptures are abundantly clear that at death we enter the very Presence of Christ, Who is far from "annihilated" - "To live is Christ, to die is GAIN" & such stated "GAIN" cannot refer to, by the very nature of the word, the cultist view of "annihilationism" or "soul-sleep," which, of course, would not be "GAIN" by any stretch of anyone's very vivid imagination, but rather QUITE DISTINCT LOSS! Is "soul-sleep" BETTER than being alive & serving Christ here today? The answer is fairly obvious. It all tends to be both depressing & tragicomic. What might one have against being "with Christ" as opposed to an imagined state of "nothingness"? If it doesn't make for being too bold, may one enquire as to whether you're a special fan of either the haberdasher, C.T. Russell, out of Alleghany, Pennsylvania, or of that sweet but palpably erroneous lady, E.G.H.W., who would call us all back to Judaic tenets beginning with the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath, "annihilationism," and on to the fallacy of an "investigative judgment"? Rowing harder never helps, of course, if the boat's headed in the wrong direction, yes?

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Openly Curious]

OC, I can see we have a long way to go to reach any kind of agreement but I don't mind if you are willing. But what I won't do is play games or try to score points. My object was to prove the mortality of the soul to which you have just raised another scripture in Rev.16 v 3 . . . and every living soul died in the sea - quite apart from knowing the meaning of it which is another matter. But if you feel the need to explain please do .

Hello Beta

If your object is to "Prove" the mortality of the soul then I asked you a ligitimate question regarding

the living soul in

Revelation 16:3--"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea and it became as blood of a dead man "and every "living soul" died in the sea."

What do you believe the "living souls" are here mentioned in this verse of scripture?

this question was posed to you as you have repeatedly said throughout your post how in your idealism the living soul came about in Genesis. So who do you think the living souls are in Revelation 16:3 that it is referring to?

OC

[Beta]

My ' idealism ' as you call it is based on the scriptures I mentioned and the ' living soul ' was first mentioned in Gen.2 v 7 , What is your problem with that ?

You then go on to the living souls in Rev.16 v 3 when scripture says every living soul died. Since we are discussing the mortality of the soul I can not see the relevance as to who those souls were. Fact is they died and that is the point of this debate , not to establish their identity. If you think that is important please explain.

[Beta]

Beta's take on immortality & the existence of a real biblical lake of fire reads like something out of Charles Taze Russell's (or Ellen Gould Harmon White's for that matter) "play-book." We are mortal & Paul says we shall "put on immortality" when we see Jesus. In the meantime, the Holy Scriptures are abundantly clear that at death we enter the very Presence of Christ, Who is far from "annihilated" - "To live is Christ, to die is GAIN" & such stated "GAIN" cannot refer to, by the very nature of the word, the cultist view of "annihilationism" or "soul-sleep," which, of course, would not be "GAIN" by any stretch of anyone's very vivid imagination, but rather QUITE DISTINCT LOSS! Is "soul-sleep" BETTER than being alive & serving Christ here today? The answer is fairly obvious. It all tends to be both depressing & tragicomic. What might one have against being "with Christ" as opposed to an imagined state of "nothingness"? If it doesn't make for being too bold, may one enquire as to whether you're a special fan of either the haberdasher, C.T. Russell, out of Alleghany, Pennsylvania, or of that sweet but palpably erroneous lady, E.G.H.W., who would call us all back to Judaic tenets beginning with the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath, "annihilationism," and on to the fallacy of an "investigative judgment"? Rowing harder never helps, of course, if the boat's headed in the wrong direction, yes?

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

AD, I resent the fact you bring my name into something I never said or implied. Please read my posts more carefully. When did I ever mention a ' real ' biblical lake of fire ? Where did I mention Christ annihilated ? Or support soul-sleep when I clearly said I had never heard of it ? I think you would do well to retract those allegations and apply them to the guilty parties.