Biblical basis for no rapture?

[Guest LCPGUY]

Eric Iwill be one of them......!!!     

Everybody who accepted Jesus as their Savior will be spared from the Tribulation to come, the minute Isreal signs a peace treathy with the Antichrist the Tribulation starts and we are gone to heaven, we will meet Jesus in the air and be changed in the twinkling of an eye!

I can't wait for that twinkle!!

Angels   

Hey Angels, I'm with you!

See yuh in the air :il:

John :hug:

[Leonard]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Several years back in my reading, I came across a contemporary account of the sack of Jerusalem by Rome in A.D. 70. It stated that when Christians saw the Roman legions begin surrounding Jerusalem, they realized what Jesus had preached in Matthew 24-25 (of course, many of them hadn't just read that account, but had actually heard the teaching!) and what they read in the Revelation of St. John, was coming to pass. So THEY fled to Petra, and were not killed in the seige of Jerusalem. As far as we know, no Christians at all died in that seige, because they understood what Jesus was teaching. (This does of course, presuppose a fairly early date for the Book of Revelation. Most Scholars (upon the flimsiest evidence) date Revelation to circa A.D. 90-100. On just as good evidence (maybe better) I tend to accept a date not later than A.D. 65.)

Yet today's great 'prophecy teachers' invariably project Matthew 24-25 off into the future. They do the same with the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation...in case some never heard that word before).

I suggest picking up Dave Chilton's book, DAYS OF VENGEANCE. It is a fine commentary on the Revelation.

On to the next topic: The doctrine of a 'rapture' is only about 200 years old. it began with a prophecy given by a teenage girl (I think in Wales). To me this is a VERY powerful argument against its verity. Do you seriously believe the whole Church completely missed this major truth for 1800 years?!!? To me that is just falderal.

Again, since Jesus declared that the Kingdom of heaven is "within" us, I ask: WHEN JESUS COMES OUT OF HEAVEN, WHERE HE COME FROM? AND WHERE WILL YOU GO TO?

With a blessing,

Leonard, a sinner

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Leonard,

Are you suggesting that Amillinialism or Preterism is the way to view Mt. 24 and Revelation?

For the truth seeker, you will find that the key to unfulfilled prophecy lies with understanding Israel and its prophetic fulfillment in the scriptures. Jesus came to "save the Jews from their sin" and restore them to a state of righteousness with God.

I would suggest to start you study Deut 4:26-31. Then move to Daniel 9 and read it. Then to the Gospels, particularly mention of the "fig tree", then to Romans 9-11. After that read Eph 1-3. Those should give you a pretty good lesson on the timeline of the Jews.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest LCPGUY]

Dear Bro Dad,

after reading and re-reading a lot of your posts on the Last Days, I have come to the conclusion that the only difference between your view of the Rapture (post-trib, pre-wrath) and my view, pre-trib is the interpretation of the sequence of events in Revelation. While I see the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments as consecutive, It appears you see them as overlapping. Am I correct?

In His Love,

John

[RGR]

Actually, the rapture IS NOT a new idea. It was taught upon by early church fathers in the 3rd and 4th centuries, so it's not that the church missed it for 1800 years. For a good part of that time, the Church of Rome suppressed pretty well any Biblical knowledge to the lay man, and even when Luther and his "protesting" followers came on the scene, the timing of the rapture was NOT the big issue, but the excesses of the Catholic church and Luther's disdain of the Jews and the book of James.

However, you might as well believe in no rapture if you're post-trib. Elementary, my dear Dad Ernie. What's the point in a rapture if we're sitting through the reign of the AntiChrist? We agree that Jesus will be coming back to overthrow the AntiChrist and that He will then set up His kingdom. So, are we going to get raptured only to come right back down a few minutes later? What would be the purpose in a rapture?

[salt and light]

The word "rapture" is not in the bible. The Church is "caught up" as it says in 1Thess. 4:17,but it is after the tribulation. Verse 14 of 1Thess.4 says, ".....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Here is a question, If there is a pre-trib.rapture,why would the Lord bring all those saints with him if He is only coming for us,just to turn around and take them all back to heaven for another 7 years? Couldn't the Lord and the angels gather {rapture} us without bringing those that are sleeping in Jesus with him? Are they coming with the Lord to get new bodys just to go back to heaven for 7 years? I believe they are coming back with the Lord to get new bodys to rule and reign down here,not to go back to heaven. There is absolutely no indication of a pretrib.rapture in 1Thess.4. Yes,there is a "rapture" if you want to call it that, I prefer to call it a "gathering", but it's not until after the tribulation,at least not until the man of sin gets revealed, probably revealed for who he really is. Either way,the Church will not be raptured before the start of this 7 year period. I have never been able to find two stages to his second coming,not by 7 years anyway.

[other one]

Well, I am physically and spiritually prepaired to be here standing... looking up when all this mess is over and Jesus comes riding in on his big white horse. However, I have made it very plain to him that I would much rather just have him come part way and take me home berfore the evil one comes to power.

If he wants me to be here and die under the rule of the beast, I can do that also (with his help) no problemo.

If He protects me from the evil one, I'd love to see Him coming in His power and the look on the faces of the rest.

I don't think it matters much in the long run, for about 100,000 years into eternity I really don't think it will matter one bit to me or any of us still around.

[salt and light]

other one,

I agree with you. Remember,if you die under the rule of the beast, you will be greatly rewarded, you'll have the priviledge of dying for Jesus.

[Guest LCPGUY]

If he wants me to be here and die under the rule of the beast, I can do that also (with his help) no problemo.

If He protects me from the evil one, I'd love to see Him coming in His power and the look on the faces of the rest.

Sam, don't give it too much thought as me thinks we'll be meetin' in the air before the AC starts his rule.

It's true that many believers will die under the AC. But these are those who came to know the Lord during the tribulation. The 144,000 among others, and, those that are led to Christ by them.

In His Love,

John

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings lcpguy,

after reading and re-reading a lot of your posts on the Last Days, I have come to the conclusion that the only difference between your view of the Rapture (post-trib, pre-wrath) and my view, pre-trib is the interpretation of the sequence of events in Revelation. While I see the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments as consecutive, It appears you see them as overlapping. Am I correct?

Yes, I see each of the periods of 3 1/2 years as running concurrently and none of them consequtively. The reason being probably has more to do with Daniel 9 than anything else. The Messiah was to come at the END of the 69th week to restore Israel to a state of righteousness with God, which in fact He did come and He preached to the "lost sheep of Israel" for 3 1/2 years. This takes us the mid-point of the 70th week. Now if you read Deut 4:26-31, you will find that they are restored to righteousness during a period when they are scattered among the nations, in a time of great tribulation, even in the LATTER DAYS.

Then when you read Romans 9-11, you find that God is NOT finished with Israel yet, and when the "fulness of the gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God)", then will be Israel's time to reach it's fulness, which is during the time of the 3 1/2 years mentioned in Revelation - A TIME OF VERY GREAT TRIBULATION & IN THE LATTER DAYS, as revealed in Deut 4:26-31. That last 3 1/2 years will fulfill the promise of God to restore Israel to righteousness.

Please read those three chapters of Romans very carefully. In them you will find:

Ch. 9 Paul laments that Israel has not found righteousness, for they sought it as by law and not by faith.

Ch. 10 Paul goes on to say "How can they hear unless someone is sent", thus laying out God's program for THEIR salvation.

Ch. 11 Paul tells us in Vs. 30-31 that it will be BELIEVERS that will SHOW MERCY on Israel, at the time of their restoration to righteousness with God.

Enjoy reading.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie