IF?

[BlindSeeker]

How about we start calling works done to earn salvation works of merit and those done by Christians what Revelation calles them:

Greetings endure4salvation,

I feel that is an incorrect statement, since we do not "earn" salvation, otherwise it would be a matter of debt with God. We merit it because we acknowledge our poor in spirit condition and call upon God's forgiveness than accept the power of His grace to empower us to do the things He has given us to do.

Salvation is a reward to those who, by His grace, did those things which God specified that "if" we did them we would inherit eternal life.

• Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name
  
  Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds
  7 To them who patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
  8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
  9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
  10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
  11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
  
  1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain, but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
  
  2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God
  
  1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry
  

To earn something establishes a debt.

To merit something simply means you qualified by meeting the established terms and conditions, but your so doing is not equal in quality to the reward given.

William

[Guest shiloh357]

Many have been teaching it for a long, long time -

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures MORE THAN lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof [that God

[endure4salvation]

How about we start calling works done to earn salvation works of merit and those done by Christians what Revelation calles them:

Greetings endure4salvation,

I feel that is an incorrect statement, since we do not "earn" salvation, otherwise it would be a matter of debt with God. We merit it because we acknowledge our poor in spirit condition and call upon God's forgiveness than accept the power of His grace to empower us to do the things He has given us to do.

~~snip~~

I by no means think that one can earn salvation...all I am saying is that there is a difference between the two, and such disctintion is not being understood by our resident securists.

[Guest shiloh357]

I by no means think that one can earn salvation...all I am saying is that there is a difference between the two, and such disctintion is not being understood by our resident securists.

Endure,

I guess the reason I am confused, is because on the baptism thread, you asserted that we must keep the commandments (you never said exactly which of the 1500 of them you were talking about) in order to be saved. You made it clear in no uncertain terms that keeping the commandments was necessary for salvation. That sounds a lot like "earning" to me. As I understood you a few weeks ago, works are necessary to secure our salvation.

As long as we are talking about making correct disntinctions, then maybe it would behoove you to make a disctinction between teaching people that if they sin, as a Christian they can go to God and simply ask for forgiveness without the need to get "re-saved," and teaching that one can sin, and sin, and sin, all they want because they cannot lose their salvation. Unfortunately, that is a distinction you refuse to make.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Endure,

I guess the reason I am confused, is because on the baptism

[SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd]

Excellent post, Jason! THAT'S why sin is so dangerous to the BELIEVER! Hence why so many WARNINGS in the New Testament against it. Thank you for that!

[BlindSeeker]

Excellent post, Jason!

Amen.

[Guest shiloh357]

No, Endure has consistently said that we are saved by faith.

Go and read pp. 4,5 in the baptism thread. Endure made it perfectly clear that unless one physically obeys all the commandments given to Christians they will not enter heaven.

Endure has never said that a single sin will cause you to lose your salvation.

According to Endure, not getting baptized is a sin and one that will cause you to forfeit heaven. Furthermore, Endure says that walking away one's faith in Christ will cause you to lose your salvation. Is walking away from your faith a sin? If so, it completely negates what you just said.

So what causes us to lose faith in God? SIN!!!!

Okkkk, so now, you have just contradicted everything in your post. You say not one single sin causes us to lose our salvation, but yet, you say that sin causes us to lose our faith in christ, which causes us to lose our salvation.

Frankly, the entire post from which I took these comments, is a jumbled mess of contradictions and sloppy theology.

[endure4salvation]

First, greetings on this blessed day to everyone!

Next, to Jason...thank you for your post. It said what I wanted to more clear and eloquently.

Next to Shiloh, I will try to comment on your posts in a way that is edifying to our conversation.

Endure,

I guess the reason I am confused, is because on the baptism  thread, you asserted that we must keep the commandments (you never said exactly which of the 1500 of them you were talking about) in order to be saved.  You made it clear in no uncertain terms that keeping the commandments was necessary for salvation. 

Actually, I didn't say that. Jesus did:

John 14:15

If you love Me, you will obey what I command.

John 15:10

If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love.

Acts 5:32

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

According to this verse, God only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey Him.

Romans 1:5

Through Him and for His name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of His power.

Hebrews 5:9

And, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

Matthew 7:22

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

If you don't think that obedience is required for salvation, your argument is not with me but with Jesus.

That sounds a lot like "earning" to me.  As I understood you a few weeks ago, works are necessary to secure our salvation.

There is a difference between earning salvation by good works and obedience to the conditions placed upon our salvation by God Himself.

As long as we are talking about making correct disntinctions, then maybe it would behoove you to make a disctinction between teaching people that if they sin, as  a Christian they can go to God and simply ask for forgiveness without the need to get "re-saved," and teaching that one can sin, and sin, and sin, all they want because they cannot lose their salvation.  Unfortunately, that is a distinction you refuse to make.

I have never said that one sin will cause the loss of salvation--I don't believe that. Although in the OT, even one instance of being caught in adultery would cause both people being stoned to death.

My point of view is that there are conditions that need to be met in order to be allowed entrance into heaven. This is NOT a works salvation. We can do nothing to merit salvation. But there is still human freewill to deal with. I mean, if we have the freewill to accept God, do we not also have the freewill to reject Him later, if we so choose?

Go and read pp. 4,5 in the baptism thread. Endure made it perfectly clear that unless one physically obeys all the commandments given to Christians they will not enter heaven.

I didn't say that, Jesus did.

According to Endure, not getting baptized is a sin and one that will cause you to forfeit heaven. 

I don't recall saying that. Here is a verse:

Matthew 28:19, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

So, how does Christ propose that we become disciples without baptism? HE DOESN'T!!! Why do you think he specifically mentioned that one act out of all the others? He doesn't mention belief, or having faith, or repentance, or confession, or God's grace -- only baptism! Did not Jesus Christ say that it was necissary? I think the answer is obvious.

Furthermore, the ONLY place in the NT where you will find HOW we are united with Christ is in Romans chapter 6:

Romans 6:3-7 (NCV)

DId you forget that all of us became part of Christ when we were baptized?  We shared in his death in our baptism.  When we were baptized, we were buried with Christ and shared in his death.  So, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the wonderful power of the Father, we also can live a new life.

Christ died, and we have been joined with him by dying too.  So we will also be joined with him by raising from the dead as he did.  We know that our old life died with Christ on the cross so that our sinful selves would have no power over us and we would not be slaves to sin.  Anyone who has died is made free from sin's control.

Unless you can show me a verse that says we are joined with Christ at confession or repentance, I will have to maintain that it is at baptism, and baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Furthermore, Endure says that walking away one's faith in Christ will cause you to lose your salvation. Is walking away from your faith a sin? If so, it completely negates what you just said.

I must admit that I don't fully understand your point here.

Okkkk, so now, you have just contradicted everything in your post. You say not one single sin causes us to lose our salvation, but yet, you say that sin causes us to lose our faith in christ, which causes us to lose our salvation.

I think that what Jason is trying to get at here is our faith is what justifies us before God. And Matthew 1:21 tells us that Jesus came to save us FROM (not while in our sins, but FROM) sin. Our faith causes us to believe that Jesus has the power to save us FROM our sins while still here on earth. Here are a few verses:

John 8:31-32, 34

If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.  Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free...I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Romans 6:16-18

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:22

But now that you have been set free from sin, and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

If we are living a life of sin, it is obvious that we are not trusting in Christ to save us from our sins! Christ is preparing a bride that is without spot or blemish.

[SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd]

I read Jason's post and it was very clear to me what he was saying. Nowhere in his post did he even mention anything about "one sin causing loss of salvation"; he was simply stating what he read from Endure. Oh, and throwing around accusations like "jumbled mess of contradictions and sloppy theology" could easily be said about OSAS. Just a thought.