An Apology and a statement.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

Hi,

Let me introduce you to a man who set out to disprove The Christian God and more. A bright educated man who did intense research. YOU may be very surprised at what he discovered adn to see whaat you think of what his book info has in it.

His name is Josh Mc Dowell.

http://www.josh.org/

I challenge you to please read his book entitled; 'The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict'

This can be found at his site or in any Christian Book Store. It is more than well worth the read. You will be able to make a learned opinion on the things which you are at present mentioning and are not informed about. Have you ever read non Christian accounts of the historicity of Jesus Christ and his life? The evidence of what really happened? There is so much more. I can say, after reading this book, you wil have no doubts, only if you want Him or not. It can cover so much that will not be covered on this venue. Anyone wanting to make a sincere inquiry should see this informational book.

Also suggesting the book entitled:"More Than A Carpenter", by Josh Mc Dowell.

Here is some of he info on his webpage also.

Josh McDowell Ministry, Apologetics

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

I first would like to apologize for my first post which some of you might have seen or been part of.

I came to this forum with the wrong attitude so to speak.

Anyway, as I said, I do apologize and come to offer my views in a more appropriate manner:

{ I didn not see your prior post. But, good reasoning conversation is important and I hope that you will inquire further, intothe Evidence Book I previously posted by Josh Mc Dowell}

I do not believe that the Chrisitian version of a "God" exists simply due to my understanding of science and what role we actually play in this universe.

God would not have carefully tailored a universe of this size for just us, as we will probably not exist long enough to even peek at the edge of it all. I don't think God went through the work of creating all of this so a tiny speck could house miniscule creatures that manifested there. That all of this was made so he could take us to a Heaven or send us to a Hell.

{ I am not so sure you fullly comprehend the Christian God, prior to your rejections here. GOd is teh true Scientist here, man knows percious little in comparison. THe 'created bring' is far less complex than the Creator. Also, we cannot possibly read Gods Mind in saying that He sould not have made this universe as HE has. . Why do you say 'manifested here' referring to humans? We are all Gods Creation in this earth. It is about personal relationship with out Creator. }

Did he really create a universe that is measured in distances we can't fathom so we could be part of a social experiment to determine how many will believe a book that he claims to have written and sent by word of mouth and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retranslated so that our generation may "Feel the love of his son Jesus Christ".

{ This is NO social experiment. That is not the meaning here. It is about learning and knowing the Creator, free choice and His purposed plan forthe world in eternity. Also, I'm afraid you have not fully explored the reliability of the Holy Scriputres and may want to take advanatage of seing how precious little the Bible has actually hcanged and how many copies ancient and modern still say the same things, the minute change you would find is SO minute ; it does not change even one thought in the Bible. About JEsus Love, if someone died for me, I would care enough to know why!}

A guy that showed up and said "I am God" when the Old Testament tells you to kill those that claim this.

Jesus could have easily been a victim of Schizophrenia and thought he was God's son. I know of many criminal psychopaths who claim to be God or Jesus or Napolean. I don't say this to insult, but knowing what we do now about human psychology, the same rules applied back then. You think we have crazy people now?! Back then, the understanding of mental health was shaky at best.

{AGAIN< I challenge y ou to explore this theory in the book, 'The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict' as this very concept is deeply discussed as are many others, I think you will be quite interested isf really wanting a thooural and intelligent look at the theories involved here.}

My point being that if you look at the story from the perspective that it MAY be a frabrication by someone 2000 years ago to control the population and keep the peace in turbulent times.

{ Actually , it did not cause peace, not socially at all, quite the opposite. You ned further reading. }

You also see the drastic difference in the "rules" in the Bible's Old and New testament. In those times it was common for hero figures and stories to be used to change or control the activities and beliefs needed. Not to say that the teaching are not valuable but certainly not worthy of worship.

{ We worship GOD, not the Scriptures that lead us to the Messiah Jesus Christ. The Scriptures were writteng to identify Jesus as Messiah, yet you won't come to Him. The Bible guides us the CHrist, it does not stop there, that is only the start! THe letter of the law, ie OT is revealed inthe Spirit of the Law, ie NT. Jesus fulfilled the Law. The OT Laws convict us of sin, if anyone says they ahve no sin, they decieve themselves. The NT shows GOds Gracious Life given and Risen Forever that we may be Spiritually healed and restored to God and His Eternal LIfe living in us that we will have passed from death to life and will recieve new undying bodies in HIs fulfillment of His Godly family for all eternity in GOds Plan. }

There is no time to be worrying about it all, it will happen regardless of what we do. There are 6 billion people on this planet and rising quick. I don't think that God really would expect all of us to follow the Word and much less should he expect a large portion to do so. What happened to the souls of all those people that lived, died, and worshipped other gods before any of the Chrisitan beliefs even had anything to be based on?

{ I dissagree, there is time to delve deeper and I sincerely hope you do just that for a fuller comprehension of what this discussion really means. }

The whole Chrisitan system of belief is based on making you feel guilty for the things that humans naturally have no way of avoiding. Sexual promiscuity and doubt are just things that the human brain does by it's self. I see the whole thing as a self-refilling guilt machine to lull people into a state of constant distraction so they will be susceptable to influence.

{ No, actually, htat isa horrible distortion of what the CHristian belief reall yis. It is about Gods lvoe and His Knowledge , being Creator to help us live a full and rewarding life on earth and for ever! His Knowledge is far above ours. His ways are only good and to life out life in His Ways and IN HIs SPirit in our lives is the way to bringamazing good and happiness to our lives. The ways people do things can be changed and they don't exactly naturally do things the best way or mose unselfish ways . GOds Love is unselfish Love, we DO need this ChristLOve on earth , desperately all over the earth. Gods LOve is a perfect Love, humans need that!

Also, seems to me you have totally overlooked the spirit behind life ,seeing only modern physical degeneration in human life, my opinion, not to be offensive, but it does seem so you have totally overlooked the spirit of LIFE!

The OT has the LAws rto convict us of our sin. THe NT shows GOds full plan to restore us in an intimate Covenant in our hearts to HIs Holy Heart.}

I will gladly and POLITLEY respond to any responses and asgain ask that you forgive my previous rudeness. Thanks!

Please check out the book I mentioned, I can't possibly type out here what would be soem great and informitive reading for you to make a further exploration and decision upon these matters. It IS worth full exploration and education on these matters, prior of forming your final decisions, realy need more info on all of this.

Thank You, Best to you,

elkie

[systemstrike_7]

Hi,

Let me introduce you to a man who set out to disprove The Christian God and more. A bright educated man who did intense research. YOU may be very surprised at what he discovered adn to see whaat you think of what his book info has in it.

His name is Josh Mc Dowell.

http://www.josh.org/

I challenge you to please read his book entitled; 'The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict'

This can be found at his site or in any Christian Book Store. It is more than well worth the read. You will be able to make a learned opinion on the things which you are at present mentioning and are not informed about. Have you ever read non Christian accounts of the historicity of Jesus Christ and his life? The evidence of what really happened? There is so much more. I can say, after reading this book, you wil have no doubts, only if you want Him or not. It can cover so much that will not be covered on this venue. Anyone wanting to make a sincere inquiry should see this informational book.

Also suggesting the book entitled:"More Than A Carpenter", by Josh Mc Dowell.

Here is some of he info on his webpage also.

Josh McDowell Ministry, Apologetics

[MorningGlory]

I do not think it is possible to enlighten you given your terms. It is like a man with a paper bag over his head, who says show me the color purple, but you have to make me see through this bag, with my eyes closed and a blindfold on. And if I cant see it, it doesnt exist.

All the best in your search.

Oh, that is SO what I would have said.......if I had thought of it!! Here we have yet another 'science dude' who wants evidence of the existence of God. It seems arrogant, to me, for a mere human to be making such demands while unable to explain his own existence or the world around him. And, like Ayin Jade points out above, no amount of evidence is going to permeate that paper bag anyway!

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

CM,

Apology accepted, now let's move forward.

But let's also examine the apology a little more in depth as well.

God works the same way. However our apology wasn't ever going to be enough. Especially in Light of the fact that we have nothing to offer a Holy, Just, and Righteous God in the way of retribution. So He sent His Son so that your apology would be acceptable to Him.

You have nothing to offer me but your Goodwill and this I accept on the premise that God has commanded me to forgive lest I myself not be forgiven. The catch 22 is this though. I am under Gods very Grace and because of that and of the knowing of His nature, I am eternally Grateful. Your Goodwill will have to be good enough for me an imperfect sinner, just like you.

However God cannot forgive you your offense because it has led to death. The life of a thing is in the Blood. Therefore Blood was required for the forgiveness of your sins. Killing you was not Gods point though. He died so that you may live. Your under a death sentence for your tresspasses against a Holy, Just, and Righteous God whom gave you everything you have and are. He is the Judge. The sentence is already passed.

You haven't harmed me and neither have you harmed God. You've harmed yourself because God will go forward and so will I, under His Grace.

The question is, "What will you now do?"

I do not believe that the Chrisitian version of a "God" exists simply due to my understanding of science and what role we actually play in this universe.

God would not have carefully tailored a universe of this size for just us, as we will probably not exist long enough to even peek at the edge of it all. I don't think God went through the work of creating all of this so a tiny speck could house miniscule creatures that manifested there. That all of this was made so he could take us to a Heaven or send us to a Hell.

Did he really create a universe that is measured in distances we can't fathom so we could be part of a social experiment to determine how many will believe a book that he claims to have written and sent by word of mouth and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retranslated so that our generation may "Feel the love of his son Jesus Christ".

God created you for a relationship with Himself, not for punishment or destruction.

As I said, "What will you now do with the information you have?"

You can go on holding God accountable for His Word and the way you see things. Or you can decide to examine your understanding in the Light of the Truth.

Jesus Christ died for you because you could not pay the price for your sin. By your own admittion you can't even overcome it's influence.

It's not about a social experiment, it's about the Love of God.

Peace,

Dave

[apothanein kerdos]

...I do see the beauty of the universe by the way it is based on patterns layered on patterns so that the events we see and are part of stem from a massive collection of chain reactions and we are just it's result.

The problem is, for patterns to occur, there has to be a mover for those patterns.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

In response to both questions, I blieve that a higher being is possible, but definitley not the way he's been portrayed by Christians. And I do not consider the testimonials to be valid material. I'm very much of the belief that human minds are too easy convinced to believe the unbelievable by simply asking them to not worry about actual evidence and make it up in thier own minds.

Any "miracles" that Christians have claimed were never studied under scientific observation. For instance the man who had the cow statue that supposedly the milk he was offering was disappearing every night until someone decided to watch it all night and saw nothing change.

People fool themselves to support thier beliefs without proof. To believe extraordinary things you need extraordinary evidence and chance happenings and hearsay will provide none.

I've seen amazing things too, like someone switch a double for themselves, a white mand with a beard for a black man and the person in the conversation not even notice. There are things that you are slipped all the time that you never notice. Subliminal advertising to social manipulation, and you never notice it. It is not outside normal logic to believe that when your life is based on it, you believe things a rational person would not.

And on the first question, it's just that I do see the beauty of the universe by the way it is based on patterns layered on patterns so that the events we see and are part of stem from a massive collection of chain reactions and we are just it's result. We've never found a God source for anything, however that is not to say a higher power did not set this play of dominos in motion. The Big Bang didn't just happen, something started it. We just haven't quite reached that far in science.

Again, I don't want to sound insulting to anyone but it's just that my views will contrast greatly with your and I wish to understand the Why? of your faith. Enlighten me, please.

You ask to be enlightened, you say; "I'm very much of the belief that human minds are too easy convinced to believe the unbelievable by simply asking them to not worry about actual evidence and make it up in thier own minds. " ...and you say; "People fool themselves to support thier beliefs without proof. To believe extraordinary things you need extraordinary evidence and chance happenings and hearsay will provide none."

So, obviously by your own words, you can see the need for you to read up on the actual extraordinary proofs that I have shown you where you can read and find and I have to say also, I have seen people who make up their minds against upon no proof as well.

Best to you, seek it out, you will find,

elkie

[MeCajunboy]

I first would like to apologize for my first post which some of you might have seen or been part of.

I came to this forum with the wrong attitude so to speak.

Anyway, as I said, I do apologize and come to offer my views in a more appropriate manner:

I do not believe that the Chrisitian version of a "God" exists simply due to my understanding of science and what role we actually play in this universe.

God would not have carefully tailored a universe of this size for just us, as we will probably not exist long enough to even peek at the edge of it all. I don't think God went through the work of creating all of this so a tiny speck could house miniscule creatures that manifested there. That all of this was made so he could take us to a Heaven or send us to a Hell.

Did he really create a universe that is measured in distances we can't fathom so we could be part of a social experiment to determine how many will believe a book that he claims to have written and sent by word of mouth and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retranslated so that our generation may "Feel the love of his son Jesus Christ".

A guy that showed up and said "I am God" when the Old Testament tells you to kill those that claim this.

Jesus could have easily been a victim of Schizophrenia and thought he was God's son. I know of many criminal psychopaths who claim to be God or Jesus or Napolean. I don't say this to insult, but knowing what we do now about human psychology, the same rules applied back then. You think we have crazy people now?! Back then, the understanding of mental health was shaky at best.

My point being that if you look at the story from the perspective that it MAY be a frabrication by someone 2000 years ago to control the population and keep the peace in turbulent times.

You also see the drastic difference in the "rules" in the Bible's Old and New testament. In those times it was common for hero figures and stories to be used to change or control the activities and beliefs needed. Not to say that the teaching are not valuable but certainly not worthy of worship.

There is no time to be worrying about it all, it will happen regardless of what we do. There are 6 billion people on this planet and rising quick. I don't think that God really would expect all of us to follow the Word and much less should he expect a large portion to do so. What happened to the souls of all those people that lived, died, and worshipped other gods before any of the Chrisitan beliefs even had anything to be based on?

The whole Chrisitan system of belief is based on making you feel guilty for the things that humans naturally have no way of avoiding. Sexual promiscuity and doubt are just things that the human brain does by it's self. I see the whole thing as a self-refilling guilt machine to lull people into a state of constant distraction so they will be susceptable to influence.

I will gladly and POLITLEY respond to any responses and asgain ask that you forgive my previous rudeness. Thanks!

No my friend; you are not an experiment of God, but a possible child of God. And HE did not allow us to be created to show reverence to Jesus, in as much as HE wanted to show the world in that time and even now , a physical being with powers and the ability to do miracles beyond belief.

Answer me this, If you were born in the time of Jesus and you had witnessed HIS greatness and HIS supernatural abilities, would YOU have believed in HIS Father because of it??? I dare say you would have been as skeptical as you are still. There were many that were as hesitant to believe as yourself. And you still need to understand that had early man not distrusted and misunderstood God in early times, there may not have been a need for God to send a Son, a human , bleeding man.....A man with the supernatural abilities as God Himself, to perform miracles, yet humble enough to die for the humanity that would live for HIS Father! Be assured that even your apology is met with skepticism here, and you need not apologize to us as much as you need to apologize to you Heavenly Father....He is the only one who knows if your heart is true and pure as you speak your plea...If you are sincere on this day, then our work here with you is a finality in your new beginning....Go in peace but go with God!

Blessings

Cajunboy

[Guest Cleanse Me]

Hmmm, to be honest, this whole idea is seeming less and less like I'm actually going to learn anything here. I do not insult any one of you by this, however, I did overlook a few things about the Chrisitian ideas and mindset that are going to inhibit my progress. I have knowledge I seek, but unfortunatley this is not the place for me. As such, and much to many of your delights, I will be leaving this forum.

It is not up to the disbeliever, but rather to the one who does believe, to prove the existence of something. All of my requests for good evidence or proof if you will, have been met rather close to my expectations. I do appreciate the responses and those who put thier time into them.

And with that I will leave, although I wish that my views weren't so far from your own as to cause normal communication to be rather difficult. Maybe one day you will venture into more expansive thought, and step on my side of the line. I've been on your side, and frankly it's uncomfortable. So, I wish there was more I needed to learn from all of you. Thanks, you've all been great!

CM

[ayin jade]

Phi 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,

Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;

Phi 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I hope you make the right choice some day. May the Lord reward your search.