Physical Death - where do we go from here?

[Chiquita]

Remember, Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Shalom Luke,

What does this have to do with the guy thinking he went to Heaven when he was near-death? That cannot be proven, it could simply be in his mind. No one is questioning his salvation, but in your last post, you said he wasn't saved. However, I am very skeptical of those stories about going to Heaven and then coming back to earth.

Remember, the Bible says:

Hebrews 9:27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Well by born again I think of and mean having a 'baptism of the Spirit' (or whatever people may refer to it as now) not just simply the initial accepting of Christ which is what he did on his death bed. Anyway, point being is that he called on the Lord before death and that was what I was thinking as giving more claim to him being in the presence of the Lord after death.

But no matter, I don't want to and have no need to argue someone else's testimony.

Thank you all very much for your replies!!! Much insight!!!

But as far as the near-death experience goes, if one of you is saying that if you aren't saved then he/she didn't experience heaven while in ICU or such, etc... but the other is saying that we go to paradise and wait til the last trumpet sounds... Well, now (I'm still learning here so bare with me on this thought) Wouldn't it be safe to say that he/she did experience the temporary place called "PARADISE" while he/she was out? Once it's all over then no one but the saved can enter heaven but what about paradise? Maybe they experienced PARADISE and not HEAVEN because God was giving them a second chance to live?!?!? ...And then sent him back to earth so that he might be saved and THEN go to heaven when the time came???

[eric]

Luke, I know of Ian Mcormack. I have seen his video, read his book and listened to his testimony when he visited our curch not long after his experience. I wasn't long saved myself then and believed his story, but fifteen or sixteen years on, I have to believe the same as Vickilynn. No visual proof, just his word,leaves me a bit skeptical. However I can't and won't judge him.

[Retrobyter]

Remember, Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Shalom Luke,

What does this have to do with the guy thinking he went to Heaven when he was near-death? That cannot be proven, it could simply be in his mind. No one is questioning his salvation, but in your last post, you said he wasn't saved. However, I am very skeptical of those stories about going to Heaven and then coming back to earth.

Remember, the Bible says:

Hebrews 9:27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Well by born again I think of and mean having a 'baptism of the Spirit' (or whatever people may refer to it as now) not just simply the initial accepting of Christ which is what he did on his death bed. Anyway, point being is that he called on the Lord before death and that was what I was thinking as giving more claim to him being in the presence of the Lord after death.

But no matter, I don't want to and have no need to argue someone else's testimony.

Shalom, Luke.

I'm with Vickilynn on this one. Anyone can have a "feel good" experience, but it proves nothing. Furthermore, there are many medical explanations for the near-death experiences that some have experienced that support the belief that the person did not actually die. We have definitions by medical means of when a person is declared dead. In the past, all it took was for a person's heart to stop. Now, we've had to change that definition because of modern advances in surgery and the ability of CPR to rescusitate an individual. Currently, they use the detection of brain-wave activity to define death of the patient. As far as the claim, we have no way either to prove or disprove the experience. Therefore, we cannot and MUST NOT base our theology on such experiences. What we perceive as truth, may be wrong, our perception being deceived by physical changes in our bodies as functions begin to shut down.

I've got another passage to add to the above list, too:

Acts 2:32-36

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD (YHVH) said unto my Lord (adoni="my mister, my sir, my master, my sire"), Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus (Yeshua`), whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Adonai and Messiah).

KJV

Note, too, that this passage is Kefa's (Peter's) proof that the verse He quotes is a Messianic prophecy and not talking about David himself, AND this incident occurred AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection (when many believe He "led captivity captive" and took those in Sh'ol to "Heaven").

Be extremely careful not to take passages about specific incidents and treat them as though they were general truisms that apply to all cases! I'm referring to the verses about Moshe (Moses) and Eliyahu (Elijah) with Yeshua` on the mountain where He was transfigured. These are two cases which are NOT common cases: Moshe disappeared and his body was not found; Eliyahu went to the sky in a "chariot of fire" and did not die. Chanokh (Enoch) is another such case. We have no report about him dying as others die. These events are ATYPICAL and should not be used as "proof" that the "soul" or the "spirit" continue to live after death.

I say this carefully, but a person's definitions of "soul" and "spirit" can really affect the way one looks at this issue. The word "nephesh" in Hebrew and the word "psuchee" in Greek both mean "animated being" and specifically "one that breathes." The word "ruach" in Hebrew and the word "pneuma" in Greek both mean "wind; blast; (forceful) breath; blowing."

Gen 2:7

7 And the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nephesh, "animated being; one that breathes").

KJV (By the way, "breath" here is the Hebrew word nishmat meaning a "puff" of air.)

Thus, this verse is MUCH more down to earth than most give it credit. The body was given a life-giving puff of air and it became a living body that breathes! This is how we learned to give CPR!

Now, in all fairness, "ruach" and "pneuma" also have applications in their definitions such that they may also mean "the immaterial part of man," and if so, then the "nephesh" and the "psuchee" are combinations of this immaterial part and the body, but that's as far as you can take it. Thus, a person is not complete without a body, and a combination of the "spirit" and the body is the "soul."

I am not convinced in "soul sleep," although I can understand that point of view and see much Scripture supporting it. On the other hand, SOME of the above quotes DO seem to suggest that the "immaterial part of a person" goes on to be with the Lord while the body ceases to live and decays. JUST THE SAME, the person is not complete without his or her body! A resurrection is NECESSARY! One is NOT at home in "paradise" without a body!

Now, "heaven" simply means "the sky," nothing more. While there are different Hebrew and Greek words translated "heaven," NONE of them suggest a third place--God's abode--above the "heaven of stars." (In Scofield's notes of the Old Scofield Edition of the KJV Bible, he suggests [for II Cor. 12:1-3] that "first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode.")

Consider the following verses:

Matt. 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

KJV

ALL of the bold-faced words above are the one Greek word "ouranos," meaning "the sky." Yeshua` gave them EXACTLY what they asked for!

Now, look at the next verses:

Gen 1:1-8, 20-23

1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

...

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

KJV

The Hebrew word for "heaven" is "shemayim" and it means "the skies." The Hebrew word for "firmament" is "raqiya`" and it means an "expanse," as gases expand. The "raqiya`" is the expanse of air that, before the Flood, existed between the waters below and an "ocean" of water above the gases. There was a water vapor canopy that existed before the flood from which the rain waters came during the early stages of the Flood. Remember: the Genesis account also tells us,

Gen 2:4-6

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

KJV

So, since birds could fly in this expanse called "shemayim," then "shemayim" is talking about our atmosphere. Now, someone will point out the fourth day and say that it has to be more because the sun, moon, and stars were created in the "heaven" as well, BUT be careful! It never actually says the "sun, moon, and stars," not even in Hebrew! It says that "LIGHTS" were put in the firmament of the heaven! The actual energy packets that we today call "photons" were put in the skies! This confirms the "appearance of age" hypothesis: God didn't create millions of stars and wait around until the light from those stars got to earth! He created the LIGHT en route to earth as well as the "sources" of that light.

Now, in Hebrew, the other words translated "heaven" are words that mean "whirlwind" and "dust particles" and "fog," but the phrase "heaven of heavens" COULD refer to the region we call "outer space." In Greek, the other words translated "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," or "heavenlies," are variations of the word "ouranos." The genitive form of the word, translated "heavenly," is "ouranios." A word translated "in the midst of heaven" is "mesouraneemati" which strictly means "in the middle of ouranos" and in Revelation 19:17 refers to where the birds fly. Only the word "epouranios" (the genitive form of "epouranos") refers to a region "above the sky." It is this word that is used in I Cor. 15:48 and 49. (It was also translated "celestial" in verse 40 talking about the "sun, moon and stars" in verse 41.) Literally, the word means "of or from above the sky." It is also used in Hebrews 12:22 to describe the "heavenly Jerusalem." Ironically (at least to our way of thinking), this word is relatively seldom used in the Bible, only 20 times in all! That's it. Those are the only occurrences of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "heaven" in the Bible.

When most refer to "heaven," if asked for a description they will quote facts from Revelation 21 and 22 which are NOT talking about some place other-worldly called "Heaven"; they are talking about a new capital city, the New Jerusalem, for Isra'el and the world that descends to the New Earth after the final judgment.

So, what about Paul's "third heaven" in II Cor. 12:1-4? I believe Peter (Kefa) gives a better explanation in II Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

That's it: The first sky and earth were before the Flood of Noach's time, a Deluge of Water, the second sky and earth are our current sky and earth, and the third sky and earth are to be expected after a Deluge of Fire. Therefore, it is the "third heaven" or "third sky" CHRONOLOGICALLY, not spatially!

Sorry this has been a little long, but as you can see, there are several ideas tied up in this approach.

Retrobyter

[firehill]

thank you, pat for sharing this last post. i believe you had this experience. i hope you will post more of your story. much love to you, in CHRIST. jim

Me too Pat. Thanks for sharing!

[MrLuke]

Remember, Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Shalom Luke,

What does this have to do with the guy thinking he went to Heaven when he was near-death? That cannot be proven, it could simply be in his mind. No one is questioning his salvation, but in your last post, you said he wasn't saved. However, I am very skeptical of those stories about going to Heaven and then coming back to earth.

Remember, the Bible says:

Hebrews 9:27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Well by born again I think of and mean having a 'baptism of the Spirit' (or whatever people may refer to it as now) not just simply the initial accepting of Christ which is what he did on his death bed. Anyway, point being is that he called on the Lord before death and that was what I was thinking as giving more claim to him being in the presence of the Lord after death.

But no matter, I don't want to and have no need to argue someone else's testimony.

Shalom, Luke.

I'm with Vickilynn on this one. Anyone can have a "feel good" experience, but it proves nothing. Furthermore, there are many medical explanations for the near-death experiences that some have experienced that support the belief that the person did not actually die. We have definitions by medical means of when a person is declared dead. In the past, all it took was for a person's heart to stop. Now, we've had to change that definition because of modern advances in surgery and the ability of CPR to rescusitate an individual. Currently, they use the detection of brain-wave activity to define death of the patient. As far as the claim, we have no way either to prove or disprove the experience. Therefore, we cannot and MUST NOT base our theology on such experiences. What we perceive as truth, may be wrong, our perception being deceived by physical changes in our bodies as functions begin to shut down.

[snip]

...

Retrobyter

Yeah I understand that, I'm not basing or building a theology on it. But I'm not too interested in trying to defend another person's testimony, regardless of what happened though to him, the result was he is now commited to the Lord and preaching to many more about God now (last I heard anyway) Either way..

But then in some ways, you can say there's no way to "prove" anyone's testimony, take mine for example - I was possessed for a number of years. Some people will accept what I say, some have called me "delusional" or have gone as far to say I had "mental problems" like schizophrenia or something!

Anyway, good study on the words for "heavens" - I have only studied Greek, so the Hebrew side of it all was useful to know (I trust you have studied Hebrew or judging by your speech know enough about it or even speek it, for this information to be accurate?)

[Guest]

?

Could It Be A Vision

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:17

?

Pointing To Jesus

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:13

Beats Me!

Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Psalms 149:1

Wonderful Discussion Dear Ones.

I'm Blessed To Listen In On A Loving Conversation Between The Kid's Of Grace.

A Couple Of Verses On The Power Of God's Holy Spirit Might Just Fit In Here.

Love, Your Brother Joe

[terter]

Since Christ Jesus raised 3 people from the dead so when we consider scriptures with those occurences, then some NED experiences have to hold water. There have been children who told their doctors everything that was said and done during their experiences. Let's face it, there are so many things in the spiritual realm that we don't know. We know what we consider death - medically, but whose to say where the line according to what the Lord considers.

[MeCajunboy]

John 3:13 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven

[MrLuke]

John 3:13 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven

[Guest shiloh357]

This is completely anecdotal, but a friend of mine was with her Chrstian father when he died.

Just minutes before he died, he claimed he was in two places at once. He told his wife and daughter that he was in perfect peace. He could still talk to her and her mother, but at the same time said that he was standing in heaven. He told them that heaven is was something that defied human description and that he could see Jesus and started talking to Jesus and with that, he completely passed over. All of that took place in the space of just a few minutes.