Question for all you Christians

[Leonard]

Greetings: To start I must correct you on one statement: You have NEVER heard a CHRISTIAN deny Jesus' bodily Resurrection. You may have heard cultists, or religious people, but NEVER a Christian! That statement would be a disqualifier, for if the physical Resurrection of Christ is denied by any religion, that religion is not salvific.

Luke 24:38-39 "Why think ye Me a spirit? Handle me and see that it is I, Myself; a spirit hath not flesh and bones AS YE SE ME HAVE....."

That's pretty definitive; Jehovah's Witnesses, Dawn Bible Students and all other apostate religions to the contrary!

[artsylady]

The apostles and many others DIED to proclaim Christ as Lord. Before the ressurrection they were doubters, just like you are. It wasn't until AFTER the ressurrection that they went out fearlessly preaching, facing prison and ultimately death.

[backontrack]

With regards to the resurrection, do you believe that Christ was resurrected in the flesh or merely in spirit? And why, please?

I've seen other Christians go either way, I'm wondering what you guys think.

Are you saved? If not quit questioning what is fact, get down on your knees and ask the creator he is good at showing people things like this. Keep asking he will show you what is real!

[Ehrenkreuz]

The generally accepted chronological order in which the Gospels were written is this: Mark, Matthew, Luke, John. Luke and Matthew both copy whole phrases from Mark and arrange them in an identical order as found in Mark, so it is clear that Mark came first among those three. Scholars dispute whether Luke preceded Matthew or the other way around, but it seems to me that, since they show no apparent awareness of each other, they were written around the same time, though scholars generally hold that Luke perhaps wrote later than Matthew. John presents the most theologically elaborate of the accounts, suggesting a late development, and even earliest Christian tradition held that this Gospel was the last to be written, and scholars generally agree on this.

In Mark, there is no mention of an angel at all. Mary and Mary arrive at the tomb to find the stone already rolled away, and walk inside to find a man in white garment. It is said that Jesus is risen and will go to Galilee. Mary and Mary are too scared, and say nothing to anyone.

In Matthew there is suddenly the addition of a great earthquake, as an angel descended from heaven and rolled the stone back before their very eyes. There were told, again, that Jesus would be in Galilee, but this time they seem to overcome their fears and run instantly to tell the disciples. Jesus appears to them and they kiss his feet and worship him. They tell the disciples, who rush to Galilee to the mountain and find Jesus. A few doubt him, but the rest worship him. He speaks to them.

In Luke there is no mention of an angel descending from heaven, when Mary and Mary arrive the stone has already been rolled away. There is no one else around. While they deliberate on the fact that Jesus' body is missing they turn around to see two men in white who tell them that Jesus has risen and that they must tell the disciples that he will be in Galilee. Mary, Mary and Joanna, and the other women who were with them tell these happenings to the eleven apostles, who doubt them and head to the tomb first to see for themselves. They then sit around wondering what could have happened when Jesus comes to the eleven but they don't recognise him until he breaks bread with them, and blesses it. As soon as they recognise him he vanishes from their sight.

In John the stone is one again already rolled away when Mary Magdalene alone arrives. When she sees Jesus' body she runs to get Peter, and 'that other disciple'. They all run to the tomb, but 'that other disciple' outstrips both Peter and Mary, to reach the tomb first. They all see there is no body, and the disciples leave Mary Magdalene alone. She weeps, and when she looks up from her weeping she sees two angels standing where Jesus had lain. When she sees them, she sees Jesus but does not recognise him at first. He says her name and then she does recognise him, and he says "17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Mary Mag. tells the disciples of her chat with Jesus. One day while the disciples are hiding from the Jews, Jesus appears in their midst. He later lets Thomas, who was not with the others, stick his finger in his wounds as proof. There was no mention of going to Galilee.

As you can see there are a few discrepancies between the various accounts of the resurrection of Christ. The sources that were used to form the Bible are the only sources written near enough to the date of the actual event to be truly considered 'evidence' of anything. And even then, the earliest written gospel is dated around 70 AD (the destruction of Jerusalem.) I would put more faith in the letters written by Paul, the latest surviving of which can be dated to around 58 AD. And Paul makes no concrete mention of a physical rise of Christ. On the contrary, he refers to Jesus as a 'revelation'. The original accounts of a resurrection of a flesh-and-blood corpse (the last three gospels) show obvious signs of legendary embellishment over time, and were written in an age of little education and even less science, a time overflowing with superstition and credulity. Religious trust was won in those days by the charisma of speakers and the audience's subjective estimation of their sincerity, not by the merit of any form of substantial evidence.

[Scarletprayers]

[First, None of this "God's Word is final" buisness, please. I'm sure that's fine when you're at church, but you sound rather pretentious from a non-believer's POV.

I didn't even read any futher..........................talk about sounding pretentious. That is our point of view, just something your going to have to deal with here.

[Ehrenkreuz]

The apostles and many others DIED to proclaim Christ as Lord. Before the ressurrection they were doubters, just like you are. It wasn't until AFTER the ressurrection that they went out fearlessly preaching, facing prison and ultimately death.

To whom are you referring? To my knowledge there are only two mentioned in the Bible itself...Stephen, who was stoned in Acts, and the Apostle James who was also executed in Acts. As far as I can see, there is no mention of specifically what these people died for. And don't act so high and mighty as if Christians are the only religious people on earth who have ever died for what they believe in! Consider the Buddhist martyrs who paved the way for the Diem Regime in 1963!

[Scarletprayers]

The apostles and many others DIED to proclaim Christ as Lord. Before the ressurrection they were doubters, just like you are. It wasn't until AFTER the ressurrection that they went out fearlessly preaching, facing prison and ultimately death.

To whom are you referring? To my knowledge there are only two mentioned in the Bible itself...Stephen, who was stoned in Acts, and the Apostle James who was also executed in Acts. As far as I can see, there is no mention of specifically what these people died for. And don't act so high and mighty as if Christians are the only religious people on earth who have ever died for what they believe in! Consider the Buddhist martyrs who paved the way for the Diem Regime in 1963!

And once again.....................................................

[Axxman]

This thread is a PERFECT example of why I steadfastly avoid the apologetics section. Non-believers ask a question and then refuse to accept the answer no matter how PLAIN scripture is. They are physically incapable of understanding spiritual matters.

"The message of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing." 1 Cor 1:18

[nebula]

In Mark, there is no mention of an angel at all. Mary and Mary arrive at the tomb to find the stone already rolled away, and walk inside to find a man in white garment. It is said that Jesus is risen and will go to Galilee. Mary and Mary are too scared, and say nothing to anyone.

Mark 16:1-8

1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?" 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away--for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. 6 But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. 7 But go, tell His disciples--and Peter--that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you." 8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Again, I ask you - where was the body?

Mark 16:9-13

9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe. 12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.

So, are you claiming they saw a ghost or a vision?

Mark 16:14-19

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Why did Jesus rebuke their unbelief if He had not risen from the dead?

[Ehrenkreuz]

So, yes, the body was missing. I never said it wasn't. Just because a body was no longer in a tomb does not mean that it was re-animated and walked out. I think a better point to put emphasis on would be the fact that the large stone had been rolled away; it would have taken several fully grown men to move the thing. It takes just one person to move a body.

And, I quote from BibleGateway.com:

"The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

The Westminster Study Edition of the Holy Bible (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1948).

"vv. 9-20. This section is a later addition; the original ending of Mark appears to have been lost. The best and oldest manuscripts of Mark end with ch. 16:8. Two endings were added very early. The shorter reads: "But they reported briefly to those with Peter all that had been commanded them. And afterward Jesus himself sent out through them from the East even to the West the sacred and incorruptible message of eternal salvation." The longer addition appears in English Bibles; its origin is uncertain; a medieval source ascribes it to an elder Ariston (Aristion), perhaps the man whom Papias (c. A.D. 135) calls a disciple of the Lord. It is drawn for the most part from Luke, chapter 24, and from John, chapter 20; there is a possibility that verse 15 may come from Matthew 28:18-20. It is believed that the original ending must have contained an account of the risen Christ's meeting with the disciples in Galilee (chs. 14:28; 16:7)."

It has been generally accpeted that Mark originally ended at 16:8. 16:9-20 were probably added during the Medieval era. I kid you not.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Ehrenkreuz