Are We Doing These Things?

[tsth]

Thanks guys. Some verses are just plain "hard" to discuss.

Dear Vickilynn,

Here's what's difficult. I DO understand that no one works to earn salvation, and I agree. It's just that as a whole, the body keeps reinforcing the concept and topic of faith, freely, with no contention (as it should be). But, when the issue of works/obedience comes up, it is always seemingly brought into question, (as of it could be questionable), rather than embraced as a valid issue, without argument.

I'm just hoping that at some point, the topic of obedience/works, will be as freely discussed without placing a shadow of doubt over the whole issue. It is reasonable to look at examine our works/fruit. It was openly discussed by Jesus and the disciples, without question. Look and see how many times the topic of fruit/obedience/works is mentioned in the NT. Yet for some reason today, anytime it is mentioned then the issue of salvation by works is always thrown in, to derail the whole conversation. There is NOTHING wrong with talking about works and obedience. In fact, as I have mentioned several times, it is part of the great commission that Jesus spoke to the disciples when He sent them out to continue spreading the gospel. Obedience was part of the command. Is there just some way that the issue can be discussed WITHOUT implying that salvation is by works, but rather salvation will be like the fig tree, it will have fruit on it, unless of course the tree is dead.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[OneLight]

I think that the verse that ajesuschrist_mathetes shared was comparable, to the biblical definition that I shared. Although, it seems as if the Titus 2:11-12 description of grace, is again, likely to be ignored, because we'd rather go with a man's "commentary" to define grace, when the Bible itself will explain it.

In His Love,

Suzanne

So true, but I thought you were asking for a definition found from the Greek ... as in the original word.

God Bless,

OneLight

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I have no problem. Misunderstandings do happen.

OneLight

[Vickilynn]

Thanks guys. Some verses are just plain "hard" to discuss.

Dear Vickilynn,

Here's what's difficult. I DO understand that no one works to earn salvation, and I agree. It's just that as a whole, the body keeps reinforcing the concept and topic of faith, freely, with no contention (as it should be). But, when the issue of works/obedience comes up, it is always seemingly brought into question, (as of it could be questionable), rather than embraced as a valid issue, without argument.

Shalom Tsth,

No, that's not true. You make these sweeping generalities that have no bearing on the truth. Listen, you keep starting threads that don't come OUT and say it, but you ask other questions, with an underlying agenda of "works."

Why don't you simply SAY IT. I mean start a thread that asks the question you REALLY want to ask and discuss what you REALLY want to talk about.

When you ask about salvation, the answers are in that context. You should know that. So, if you want to ask about works and obedience (without the context of salvation), just start THAT thread, not one asking about salvation and getting mad when people respond about salvation. We're only doing the right thing since YOU asked about salvation. So, don't blame the "other" guy for your frustration, just ask the questions you really want to ask.

[Vickilynn]

I think tsth is awesome

Shalom,

I personally think G-d is awesome!

The Scriptures say plainly that for someone to be SAVED, it is the gift of G-d - His grace, faith to accept the Messiah.

There are no works that attain salvation, that's what the Scriptures say.

God is indeed awesome,that is an understatement.

Yep salvation is as gift of God that can not be earned.

Shalom,

Amen. A free gift, not of works. However, ONCE one is saved, we are to walk in obedience. I don't know how this could be any more clearer.

[tsth]

No, that's not true. You make these sweeping generalities that have no bearing on the truth. Listen, you keep starting threads that don't come OUT and say it, but you ask other questions, with an underlying agenda of "works."

Is THIS an agenda, Vickilynn?

Revelation 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." 12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[Vickilynn]

Is THIS an agenda, Vickilynn?

Shalom Suzanne,

Do you see yourself as some sort of prophet, instructing us all?

As usual, you have misread my post and misstated my words.

What I said was, your threads ask OTHER questions than the one you really want to ask and yet you want to get to those other questions. So, that is your hidden agenda, getting to the "works" issue. Why not skip all the games and just ASK the question you really want to ask?

When you ask about salvation, you get answers in the context of salvation. Then you get mad at the responders who are only doing what you asked. So, don't blame them, just ask your REAL questions.

[Pilgrim7]

It would seem that there needs to be a clarification here as to the difference between being saved and salvation as applied to the complete process which includes justification, sanctification and glorification.

Justification is how one is saved. It is the beginning of Salvation. It is not salvation in its entirety. When one is saved, there is still a race to be run, a prize to be claimed, a destination to be reached. Justification does not guarantee one of finishing the course, and receiving the prize. Through justification, one has been forgiven of all past sin, and now has the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but now the war between the flesh and Spirit begins. This is the fight of faith which all are required to fight. This is where faith either grows strong and conquers the flesh or withers and dies by giving into the flesh. This is where the will is exercised in works that either demonstrate living faith or dead faith. Thus the works play a vital role in Sanctification which is an integral part of the Salvation experience.

Thus works play no part in justification, being initially saved, but a very large part in Sanctification, or living the saved life which is an integral part of the Salvation process, thus a part of Salvation. Justification does not guarantee that the one justified will continue on in the Sanctification required for ultimate Glorification. He is not now a robot of God, but is to walk in faith, which is what faithfulness is all about. Only those justified who are also faith-full and progressively grow up to the full stature of Christ will receive the prize.

It is the teaching of OSAS that attempts to make works of no importance in the Salvation process. This makes God totally responsible for the outworking of obedience, with no responsibility of the saved one to choose to ignore the flesh and walk in the Spirit.

Thus to be saved initially, which is justification, requires no works. They are not a part of the justification process. The reason there are no works required is because justification is the work of a moment, the work of God in forgiving the repentant soul and changing him, giving him the 'new heart', to battle the sinful nature, the moment he believes.

Now that he has the 'new nature' by faith, he is equipped to fight the good fight of faith, doing the works of a faith-full child of God conquering the sinful nature which is still with him. This is not a part of his initial saving, but a working out of that which God has worked in by faith in warring against the flesh.

So in summation,

Works have nothing to do with initial Salvation, that of being saved.

Works of faith, have every thing to do with continuing in Salvation, which will determine whether we are saved at the end of the race that Paul speaks of.

It is nice to be saved, but even better to continue on to Glorification. There will be many disapointed people who were 'Once Saved', but who find out in the end, that they were not 'Always Saved'. Tis better to examine oneself now and save a whole lot of pain and anguish when it is too late to examine.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Dennis,

You may wish to discuss this issue in the new thread:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=74788

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

I hope the following is useful-sure don't want to be a pain in the butt for all you that know this all and probably lots more:

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From the online "Strong's Concordance" got this-gives the "Strong's numbers" for each word:

Eph 2:8 For 1063 by grace 5485 are ye 2075 saved 4982 through 1223 faith 4102; and 2532 that 5124 not 3756 of 1537 yourselves 5216: [it is] the gift 1435 of God 2316:

word Strong's number

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grace 5485

saved 4982

faith 4102

With these numbers, go to the Online Strong's Concordance to get the Greek words and their definitions.

Link to Online Strong's:

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Going there, for example, for "faith" =4102 gives this:

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

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Result of search for "4102":

3640. oligopistos ol-ig-op'-is-tos from 3641 and 4102; incredulous, i.e. lacking confidence (in Christ):--of little faith.

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4100. pisteuo pist-yoo'-o from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

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4101. pistikos pis-tik-os' from 4102; trustworthy, i.e. genuine (unadulterated):--spike-(nard).

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4102. pistis pis'-tis from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

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For the Online "Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words", here is link:

http://www.mf.no/bibel/vines.html

Going there for Vine's definition of "faith" gives this:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

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[fair][faithful]

Topic: Faith

<1,,4102,pistis>

primarily, "firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."

The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom. 3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1 Cor. 2:5; 15:14,17; 2 Cor. 1:24; Gal. 3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phil. 1:25; 2:17; 1 Thess. 3:2; 2 Thess. 1:3; 3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Matt. 23:23; Rom. 3:3, RV, "the faithfulness of God;" Gal. 5:22 (RV, "faithfulness"); Titus 2:10, "fidelity;"

Edited December 11, 2007 by ajesuschrist_mathetes

[OneLight]

We have done all by dissect the main purpose of this scripture. Below is how I see it.

First, the scripture.

2 Peter 1:5-11

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now, how I see and apply it to my life.

These are steps in which we are to grow, pointed out in this particular pattern for a reason. We can not skip any step, or it will not be complete. If we follow these steps, we are promised "you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

If we follow these steps, we are told "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

.................................................................Love

..........................................................Brotherly kindness

..................................................Godliness

..........................................Perseverance

...................................Self-control

...........................Knowledge

.....................Virtue

...............Faith

We should notice that each step is one more step upward, toward our calling and election, which is the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Will we ever stumble? Yes. Will we give up? I hope not. We are to obey His directions, yet as humans, our flesh gets in our obedient way from time to time and we keep on picking ourselves up and continuing toward the final reward. Nothing, but the word of God, is set in stone.

This is how I see it ...

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight